Ar Optics-different Question

[ken hebert]

Hoping to not repeat my past mistake in THINKING I knew what made a good 3-gun rifle, I have been spending alot of time pouring over the forum here, doing searches, ect. I think I've narrowed down what I want in a rifle, but keep having a nagging question about a scope. Here's the dilemma:

There appear to be two basic camps here. Camp A likes the EOTech for everything, as long shots can be made and hosing is easy. Camp B likes a 1x4 for long shots and maybe a set of aux sights on the forearm for hosing. My question is what is to stop a competitor from mounting a set-up such as an Aimpoint CompM2 and then utilizing the Aimpoint 3XMag on quick detach mounts in conjunction for stages requiring precision distance shots?

Disclaimer: this is not a set-up I am planning on using, just inquiring minds want to know. 'Ya know?

[uscbigdawg]

Sounds like a rules interpretation question that would be great to have an answer to.

One side would say that you're using two different scopes and therefore are in Open Division, so it wouldn't matter, but there has always been a lack of clarification (at least with me) as to whether or not in Open, you can put on take off equipment as you need it.

For instance, back in the old days, I ran a 2.5-7x scope as my primary optic and then an Aimpoint at 2 o'clock out on the handguard. If I didn't need the dot though, I released from the handguard and put it in the bag. Same for bi-pods and Redi-mags. Never knew if this was totally legal, but since I shot Open Division, it never seemed like a problem.

So, this sounds like the same case. What's a ruling from the gallery/USPSA/IMGA?

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

I'm ASSuming Hebert is asking about USPSA Tactical class...

http://www.uspsa-nationals.org/downloads/3...rpretations.pdf

A magnifier may be used with an optical sight in Tactical division without violating the "one optic" rule, provided: a) the magnifier does not contain an aiming reticle b ) the magnifier can not be used as an aiming device by itself c) the magnifier is mounted in the same location on the rifle for the entire match If these provisions are satisfied, a) the magnifier will not be considered a second/separate optic, b ) and the competitor may start and use their optic in either magnified or unmagnified mode without further restriction.

I'm interpreting that the magnifier has to be "mounted in the same location on the rifle for the entire match." So if the guy takes it on and off he ain't legal in Tactical. He gets plunked into open.

My interpretation of the rule is that a shooter can utilize the Aimpoint (and EOTech) system if he/she has one of those swinging mounts for the magnifier. He can swing it off to the side when he wants to use it in 1X mode. The magnifier is still attached to the weapon in the same location --- just swung out of the way (sort of). The weight of the empty gun remains the same throughout the match.

http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...Magnifier_Mount

Off to the side:

In line in 3X mode:

(Of course my interpretations could be wrong. I still say per the letter of the Single Stack rules you should be able to use the plastic SS grip on an SVI/STI and be legal in SS division. )

As for the IMGA matches... who knows. I haven't seen any rulings from any of the specific matches.

[George]

Firearms are to remain in the same configuration for the duration of a match. If the Quick Detach optic is mounted on the gun to start, it stays on all the way through the match. If it is dis-mounted to start the match, it stays off all the way through the match. On and off are defined as being mechanically attached to the gun.

This is the same for all divisions as far as changing sights goes. Primary weapon configuration stays the same as you started with. In Open, you can hang as many optics as you want onto the suckah', they just have to be there all the time if they are any type of sighting device. The other divisions have limits on what can be on the gun in addition to not allowing actual configuration changes.

[benny hill]

The eotech is not as fast as the meopta up close as it has a more clutered view around the glass & cannot compare past 25yds.

[D.Hayden]

During the RO briefing for the 3 Gun Nationals last year, there was special mention of the swing out magnifier optic.

It has to stay in the same configuration the whole match, either magnified or not, it can not swing during the match.

Edit: See below (post 15) - I seemed to have heard the wrong story on this.. sorry...

Edited May 7, 2006 by BerKim

[Religious Shooter]

Well that clarifies it.

But I have to disagree with it. If someone wants to run that clunky system in Tactical I say let 'em. I don't see a big competitive (dis)advantage there.

[ken hebert]

Wow. Guess that answers that question. Now I can get some sleep

Yes, I was referring to limited/tactical division, although I did not clarify. Couldn't you read my mind?

Now that all that is settled I can really get to work on my new AR, just as soon as I get back from assigment in New Orleans... Maybe I ought to take an AR with me...

Edited May 7, 2006 by ken hebert

[George]

If I could, I would travel everywhere with an AR :-)

[bberkley]

This probably isn't what you are looking for, it is from a post on another board, and the guy that posted it has BTDT. It certainly influenced my scope decisions, wish the topic had been discussed before I bought the scope I did.....

Granted, his post is slanted towards combat use of optics, but there is good info that I felt was relevant to practical shooting.

I will preface my comments by saying that I work for a company that manufactures combat optics.

That said, I speak only for myself. You can decide yourself whether my job has anything to do with my opinions.

I have found, over the past few years, through trial and error and through comparing notes with guys who use them, that the Aimpoint eclipses the EoTech in terms of robustness and brightness. Just yesterday, observing weapons trials in a Southeast Asian country which will not be further designated (no, not the country where I reside), my opinion was reinforced. The Aimpoint is a more durable optic than the EoTech, and it interfaces with NODs better.

That said, both these optics are best used for CQB, and some training is required. Both optics use batteries to illuminate the reticle, and this is important, as you can lose the reticle under some conditions. In other words, the reticles can wash out. You see this when you go from a dark place (like outside a building) into a bright place (like inside a brightly lit building), or when you point the optic directly at a light source (like someone kneeling in front of a vehicle with headlights glaring).

You can overcome this limitation of collimeter sights, reticle wash out, through training, and by boosting the illumination of your reticle. This gets you into how the optic is designed, and how much juice it sucks up under full amplification. The battery life of the Aimpoint smokes the EoTech. Big time.

Both of these optics are best used in built up areas, clearing rooms, alleyways, and buildings. They are effective out to about a hundred meters, as they lack magnification. You can use them beyond 100 meters, but doing so gets you into questions about the size of the reticle, the shape of the reticle, how it is illuminated, etc. Optics like the Aimpoint and the EoTech are designed to accelerate close combat target acquisition. You bring the weapon up, you keep both eyes open, you put color on the target, and you fire. Simple, fast, and with practice, it works.

As an Old School kind of guy, I have an innate aversion to combat optics. They represent just one more piece of kit to carry, one more piece of gear to sign for from supply, and one more thing to lose and pay for when you transfer to a new unit. I was taught to use iron sights, and after thousands of rounds of practice, my muscle memory was such that I was pretty competent. I went to the old SOT course at Bragg. The term "CQB" was not really invented when I was taught the art of room clearing. I also have an aversion to body armor, for many of the same reasons. So, you see, I am a veritable dinosaur.

Since then, I have used a variety of combat optics. I find them more a hindrance than anything at ranges out to a hundred meters. I find that they tunnel me in, and that I "see" more, and am aware of more, if I use iron sights. This is just me, and again, I grew up before all this cool gear came into play. You younger guys grew up differently, you were trained differently, and you will pick up the use of combat optics faster and easier than I will, as you have fewer years and thousands of rounds less of hard lessons to unlearn and overcome.

At ranges of a hundred meters and beyond, I am now a huge fan of combat optics. I think that optics which use magnification are very, very useful. They enable you to focus on a partial target, maybe just an arm, or a shoulder, or a head, and they help you ID that target. Those of you who have experienced a firefight know that "blue on blue," that is, accidentally killing friendlies, is a massive problem.

When everyone is dirty and gritty and the sun is eclipsed by dust, smoke and fire, and everyone is keeping their heads down, and peeking around corners and over parapets and between gaps blown in buildings, magnification can help you kill bad guys, and magnification can help you avoid killing your buddies. Not all friendlies are wearing MICH helmets, and not all friendlies are readily identifiable as friendlies at a glance. You need to be able to see who you are killing. Maybe it is a woman. Maybe it is a man wearing an abaya. Maybe it is a man wearing a suspiciously roomy dishdasha. Maybe it is a teenage member of the local soccer team. Maybe it is a teenage member of the local soccer team with an RPG launcher in his hands. You get the point.

Those of you who have been there also know that it is hard to shoot accurately when you are under fire. Your breathing is all f*#ked up because you are scared, your heart is racing, and you are bone tired, dog tired, thirsty, with a parched throat and a dry mouth, you always somehow have dust in your eyes, and your nuts are twisted in your boxer shorts, just because it is yet one more thing to make you uncomfortable and ratchet up your suck factor at a very bad time. You will probably also have muscle cramps because you have been squatting for so long, and because you ran out of water hours ago. Few things in life suck more than a charlie horse in a firefight.

Combat optics with magnification come in very handy at times like this, particularly when they include bullet drop compensators, or BDCs. BDCs enable you to engage and hit targets at extended ranges, even with an M4 with a 14.5-inch barrel. With a Trijicon optic, for example, you simply place the stadia lines from the BDC between the shoulders of your target. If they fit, that is your range, and when you fire, you will hit center of mass. If the stadia lines do not fit, you move up to the next line, or drop down to the next line, until you find a line that fits. Then you squeeze your trigger, drop your bad guy, and transition to your next target. This is an extremely fast and effective way of ranging targets, and hitting at combat distances beyond 100 meters.

My favorite optics are Trijicon optics. They are not, strictly speaking, CQB optics. For pure CQB, clearing rooms, I will probably recommend an Aimpoint. I do like the large field of view of the EoTech, but I hate that optic because it breaks too easily, the reticle washes out too much, and it eats batteries, and I hate having to carry extra batteries, because I am already carrying extra ammo, a pistol, a radio, a strobe, a cell phone, a GPS, gloves, a squad leader's notebook, knives, grenades, smoke grenades, a Willie Pete grenade, a CS grenade, and a thermite grenade. Essentials, in other words. Yes, a battery is small, but I also have to carry my shades, my iPod (which I have never used but take with me "just in case"), my memory stick, a compass, a multitool, a pen gun, light sticks, and my camera, to memorialize those moments which are just too special to ever forget. And whatever else I forgot to mention.

So, I guess what I am saying is, unless I am clearing rooms, and then returning back to base immediately afterwards, I want a combat optic, and not a CQB optic. I want to be able to engage up close and personal, as well as out to ranges as far as 800 meters (the farthest stadia line on the Trijicon ACOG).

All of this is intended to tell you one thing: look at the Trijicon Compact ACOG. You can use it for CQB, with both eyes open, at close ranges, and it excels at infantry ranges, beyond 100 meters.

One other thing: Trijicon optics do not use batteries. They do not need them. They use tritium, the same amount used in a Rolex watch. It lasts for 12 to 15 years, and then the lamps can be replaced for about $35 (at current pricing, as no one knows how much tritium will cost 15 years from now). Trijicon ACOGs also use fiber optics, so reticle brightness automatically adjusts in accordance with ambient light conditions. If it is bright out, your reticle gets brighter, so it will not wash out. If it is dusky out, your reticle is dimmer. If it is pitch black, your reticle is illuminated by tritium. No batteries, no on-off switches, no electronics to break.

Trijicon reticles in ACOGs and Compact ACOGs cannot wash out, regardless of how bright that it gets. The reticles are etched onto the glass. Not projected. If you point an ACOG directly at a light source, you will still see the reticle. This is a huge advantage. Point an Aimpoint or an EoTech directly at a bright light and look for your reticle. It will not be there.

Last point: Trijicon optics are warranted for life. The tritium is warranted for 12-15 years. If your reticle gets dim, you send it to the factory, they test it, and if the lamps are weak, they swap it out. If your optic is old enough, they will charge you $35 at current prices. If your optic is not old, your reticle will not be dim. Other than that, Trijicon optics are guaranteed for life. They are made out of the same lightweight forged aluminum as the M4 carbine. They are indestructable, unless you roll over them with a tank.

[ERIC]

I agree the rifle should stay in one configuration throughout the match and you shouldn't be able to remove the magnifier for one stage and put it on latter. I have to disagree about not letting it swing out of the way. What about those guys who use ACOGs with the fiber optic and use a closed cap on the front for the close stuff and flips the cap up for the long range stuff? Should they be forced to leave the cap closed or open through the whole match?

If the magnifier can quickly flip out of the way and back, it sounds like a cool idea. I hate having to crank up or down the magnification on by IOR during a stage, but I do like the option to go anywhere between 1.1x - 4x. You are stuck with 1x or 3x with Aimpoint/3x magnifier option. I would love to try the Meopta.

[mike_pinto]

Get the Meopta. I have seen them in action by that crazy Britt Mike.45. He can't shoot AR's in the old country and still did outstanding in Mesa. If Kurt M and Benny recommend the Meopta, it's money in the bank.

Mike

[ken hebert]

What about those guys who use ACOGs with the fiber optic and use a closed cap on the front for the close stuff and flips the cap up for the long range stuff? Should they be forced to leave the cap closed or open through the whole match?

Remember that I'm not real familiar with this particular game yet, so what exactly are you referring to? My guess is that the shooter is using the BAC, and that the closed cover on the front eliminates the magnification so all you are left with is a (for a right eye dominant shooter) dot/donut/chevron/triangle from the right eye input superimposed over the actual target input from the left eye.

Am I even close to being right?

[ERIC]

Remember that I'm not real familiar with this particular game yet, so what exactly are you referring to? My guess is that the shooter is using the BAC, and that the closed cover on the front eliminates the magnification so all you are left with is a (for a right eye dominant shooter) dot/donut/chevron/triangle from the right eye input superimposed over the actual target input from the left eye.

Am I even close to being right?

Good guess.

[bgary]

During the RO briefing for the 3 Gun Nationals last year, there was special mention of the swing out magnifier optic.

It has to stay in the same configuration the whole match, either magnified or not, it can not swing during the match.

Hmmm... I wasn't able to attend the 3g nats last year due to work, but I was very involved in writing the USPSA interpretation that someone quoted above. If that *was* what was said at the briefing last year, it was wrong. The USPSA Board voted that, for the purposes of a multi-gun match, a swing-in magnifier was functionally identical to a 1-3 zoom capability, and was allowed in tactical as a "single optic" as long as it was mounted to the rifle for the whole match. swing it in, swing it out, don't care, just don't remove it from the gun.

Bruce

[D.Hayden]

Bruce, I certinly could have heard it wrong..

Or, maybe I took the wording wrong...

I apologize for the bad info...

Good thing I was on a shotgun only stage

Edited May 7, 2006 by BerKim

[George]

a swing-in magnifier was functionally identical to a 1-3 zoom capability, and was allowed in tactical as a "single optic" as long as it was mounted to the rifle for the whole match. swing it in, swing it out, don't care, just don't remove it from the gun

Zackerly as I understand it to be.