Match Ammo

[wide45]

OK, lets go back to the written rules.

5.5.4 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy the requirements of the relevant Division.

This one is a red herring. There is no information about taking ammo from the competitor for chrono.

29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition.

It's all here. Does not say only ammo used. Recommends that RO collects ammo indiscriminately in the hope that it will match ammo used. Actually leaves it wide open for any ammo to be collected.

Thesaurus on randomly;

Adv. 1. randomly - in a random manner; "the houses were randomly scattered"; "bullets were fired into the crowd at random"

arbitrarily, at random, every which way, haphazardly, indiscriminately, willy-nilly

Edited October 10, 2008 by wide45

[XRe]

29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition.

It's all here. Does not say only ammo used. Recommends that RO collects ammo indiscriminately in the hope that it will match ammo used. Actually leaves it wide open for any ammo to be collected.

Let me shed some light for you here... While they were slightly edited in the final form, shred and I wrote the proposal that became the current set of chrono rules, and they are largely intact from what we originally wrote. Item 29 was a compromise between us - Roy is vehemently against allowing the match staff to select ammo from the competitor's full supply (ie, what's in the bag) and has some good reasons why. My opinion is that without that ability, the chrono is a sick joke. So, 29 is a way of providing the match staff with the notion that the "gimme 8" procedure used everywhere is not optimal at all, but does not provide any specific ability to, say, search through someone's bag at will. It does suggest that perhaps the match staff should be selecting ammo specifically from mags the competitor has on their belt as the approach a stage, or that were on their belt (perhaps dropped on the ground) during a stage, rather than allowing the competitor to provide the ammo in an unsupervised fashion.

Most of us don't like the notion that someone could call us to task, or suggest that we might need checking, or that we might do something unsportsmanlike. I can totally dig that. However, there are individuals who will take advantage of that situation - they will hand off 8 rounds from a different set of ammo than they are actually using in the match. If you don't have a way of insuring that you are sampling the ammo they are actually shooting in the match, you aren't actually testing the PF of each competitor. If you are not collecting ammo randomly in some fashion, rather than the "gimme 8" strategy, you're just making it that much easier to cheat. If you're not willing to take the step to collect ammo in at least a somewhat random fashion, you might as well not chrono - because the only folks you're going to drive to minor are those who made honest mistakes, and not anyone purposefully shooting light loads for a competitive advantage. (thus my "sick joke" comment).

Random sampling does create an additional problem - what do you do for early chrono squads? They haven't shot yet, or shot much, so randomly sampling their ammo is tough before they actually chrono. There are various ways - but the only real way to randomly sample their stuff accurately is to allow their bag to be sampled...

"Back in the day", it was reasonably well known that any ammo in your bag was game, if the RM decided you needed to be re-chrono'ed... No one really liked it, but it was accepted as the only way to insure that cheaters were caught. Now... especially with the prevailing attitude in this thread, you can't... I can cheat at the chrono at will, if I so desire. Unless a newer way of determining power factor is devised (one that measures ammo fired mid-stage somehow, and does it randomly so that the shooter can't pre-determine where (s)he'll be measured), you might as well get it over with and drop power factor from the game, as its now irrelevant....

As far as comments about not letting your friends do what you won't let your goverment do... Maku Mozo... you already let them into your paycheck and tell them what you make...

[JKSNIPER]

Easy to solve.

If you have embarassing stuff in your bag?

LEAVE IT AT HOME.

Take out the spare panties,bras and other items that will offend your sensitive nature if they were to ever have sunlight hit them and leave them at home.

Heres a novel idea....put only stuff you intend to use or may HAVE to use (Cleaning/repair stuff) at the match in the range bag.

My range bag has a seperate area for ammo and the ranges I've shot at it seems to be a hiking test aswell as a shooting test so I'm NOT carrying around ammo I don't have to and anyone of you R.O. guys are more than welcome to as me for any of the ammo to test. Pick the box.

No sweat.

Come on guys.....we're getting wrapped around the axle about something that is pretty much common sense but if you feel that strongly about it then the NROI guys should get together and address this issue.

IMHO any ammo you bring onto the range on match day should be considered as "match ammo" and therefore subject to testing to verify PF.

Leave the "extra" ammo or testing ammo in the car.

JK

[Cardinal]

Easy to solve.

If you have embarassing stuff in your bag?

LEAVE IT AT HOME.

Take out the spare panties,bras and other items that will offend your sensitive nature if they were to ever have sunlight hit them and leave them at home.

Heres a novel idea....put only stuff you intend to use or may HAVE to use (Cleaning/repair stuff) at the match in the range bag.

My range bag has a seperate area for ammo and the ranges I've shot at it seems to be a hiking test aswell as a shooting test so I'm NOT carrying around ammo I don't have to and anyone of you R.O. guys are more than welcome to as me for any of the ammo to test. Pick the box.

No sweat.

Come on guys.....we're getting wrapped around the axle about something that is pretty much common sense but if you feel that strongly about it then the NROI guys should get together and address this issue.

IMHO any ammo you bring onto the range on match day should be considered as "match ammo" and therefore subject to testing to verify PF.

Leave the "extra" ammo or testing ammo in the car.

JK

+1

Don't see what all the fuzz is about.... but then again I shoot under IPSC rules.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Cardinal

[Flexmoney]

IMHO any ammo you bring onto the range on match day should be considered as "match ammo" and therefore subject to testing to verify PF.

Leave the "extra" ammo or testing ammo in the car.

JK

I can appreciate your opinion, but we are looking at what the rule reads. Your position would be fully supported if the rule read "possession."

If you feel that any ammo that the shooter brings to the range is to be considered "match ammo", then that tight view ought to be clearly supported by the rule book. We don't have the clarity or wording to support that tight of a view. If that is what you want, then you should petition USPSA to make that correction in the next version of the rule book.

My opinion is that people have given valid reasons for having ammo in their possession that isn't "match ammo." These people aren't the cheaters, they are good and honest people. Why hassle them?

If you want to catch the cheaters, there are better ways.

I don't feel this is a case of needing tighter or more rules.

[Jim Norman]

Local Match, I come to the match, I bring my Limited gun and my production gun. A) I may not have decided which to shoot, ( I'd rather shoot in a large division than one that has only a couple shooters) I might want to shoot an extra classifier. Both of my guns are .40 cal. Limited gun has a longer round that will not fit in my Production gun and definitely makes MAJOR. the Production rounds on the other hand will fit in both and work in both.

You want to DQ me for having minor rounds if I decided to shoot Limited or L-10 today? I have toleave my ammo a) at my car or outside the gate to the range?

I don't think so.

I think as Nik indicated a couple pages back, the vast majority of our people are honest. At a local match I have seen people declare Major and go minor or declare minor and sub out. They are mostly new to reloading and followed the book recommendations without having a chrono. We always suggest that they either get a chrono or ask one of use with a chrono to bring it out so they can check.

I do not think any of them were cheating.

Jim

[Barrettone]

You want to DQ me for having minor rounds if I decided to shoot Limited or L-10 today? I have toleave my ammo a) at my car or outside the gate to the range?

I don't think so.

Jim

Bottom line is, that nobody here wants to be "inconvenienced". You think that you are "entitled" to bring whatever you want, and that certain things are not open to scrutiny. With that logic, you could drive a truck through all the loopholes you would create in the rulebook. If everything was BLACK AND WHITE and clearly defined, we wouldn't need RM's, Arbitration or the chain-of-command structure at USPSA matches. You are living in a dream world if you feel that our rulebook can be black and white with no ambiguities, and cater to all eventualities. There needs to be common sense application. As I said earlier...snap caps are considered AMMO by our strict definition. Does that mean I should chrono your snap caps, and make you go sub-minor, or fail chrono? No, as I apply common sense to the rule and acknowledge that they are a practice tool, and that is why they are in your bag. Would you now like a rule(s) addressing bringing snap caps to the range? We could go on and on, and the rule book would get thicker and thicker. Rules will ALWAYS need interpretation. If you don't like that, then take up knitting (there isn't a rulebook for the " International Confederation of Knitters" is there?). Seriously, I think this type of argument harbors that "us vs them" mentality. Shooters feel that the RO has the potential to invade what they consider their "private space", and is hence overbearing and overreaching their authority. Shooters are very protective of their rights, and think it is some sort of illegal search. Fact is, that tool needs to be there just to keep that .00001% of dishonest people honest. If you don't like, then I don't know what to tell you. John Amidon spoke to the issue, and several RM's have said their peace. You don't want to accept it, then I can't help you other than to say YOU need to petition NROI for an official ruling/written policy of where ammo can and cannot be taken from. Using Kyles logic, it is OK to take them from ammo off the belt, or in mags used in a COF, but NOT from a shooters bag. Simply by stating that, he is saying when and where it can come from. That is not right either. Quote me a rule that says where ammo can come from, and I'll admit I'm wrong. Until then, it is at the RO's discretion to take it from ANY SOURCE. I, along with any RO I have ever met would NEVER make a competitor run 9mm major rounds through a production gun. I would simply ask "Please give me 8 chrono rounds from that ammo box in your bag". If the shooter said "Those are my wifes Open Rounds", then I would reply: "OK, give me 8 of those for her, and then 8 from the other box that are your production rounds". That way, if he is trying to game the system, his wife is probably going sub-minor...he-he. Seriously, this idea that the RO is gonna say "Tough" and make you endager yourself or your gun is absolutely ridiculous. Hell, the chance of even getting asked to take them from your bag is almost nil. However, the option needs to be there. So, I can't think of anything else I haven't said over and over. Gonna shoot it...bring it to the range. If not, leave it at home or in the car. It's not really that difficult. Quit yer bitchin' and just shoot!!! This sport is too fun to waste time bickering over senseless $hit.

[Nik Habicht]

Fact is, that tool needs to be there just to keep that .00001% of dishonest people honest. Hell, the chance of even getting asked to take them from your bag is almost nil. However, the option needs to be there.

Jeff,

You've not even considered this from the other side have you? 'Cause quite frankly if the options of getting ammo from anywhere else but from the shooter between "Range is Clear" for the preceding competitor and "Make Ready" for the following competitor, I would still have no problems ensuring that shooters weren't gaming the system.....

.....but then my Nursing instructors put all of this emphasis on critical thinking in school these days ---- where NROI would be saying "Just listen to the Doctors --- they're always right!" :devil:

[Flexmoney]

Doesn't common sense include reading what the rules say?

[scirocco38s]

Doesn't common sense include reading what the rules say?

Evidently not ....... I will say as I have read all of this, that there is a level of distrust going on here between some of the members that bothers me.

We had this same RO vs Shooter mentality 10 yrs ago and that was the first thing that Voigt cleaned up. I believe the game is better for it. If people know someone is cheating then they need to be called on it. They will either clean up their act or quit, either one is acceptable. We dont need to be laying traps for everyone just because of a few bad apples. Find them and wed them out. You dont need to be in their range bag, you can walk up and take the rounds right off them during a stage, and you dont have to announce yourself or send a meesage, just walk up and pick up a discarded mag or 1 off the belt at the end of the stage. Those rounds along with the shooter gun if passes then no foul, if not then you finally got him.

The rest of the range lawyers here can make whatever point you want but it is pointless. As Nik and others have stated, the range bag is off limits.

[Barrettone]

Doesn't common sense include reading what the rules say?

The rest of the range lawyers here can make whatever point you want but it is pointless. As Nik and others have stated, the range bag is off limits.

Quote me the rule that says rounds CANNOT be taken from the bag for chrono. Or show me one that says rounds in ones bag are NOT considered ammo that will be used. C'mon...QUOTE THE RULE!!! QUOTE THE RULE!!!

[scirocco38s]

Doesn't common sense include reading what the rules say?

The rest of the range lawyers here can make whatever point you want but it is pointless. As Nik and others have stated, the range bag is off limits.

Quote me the rule that says rounds CANNOT be taken from the bag for chrono. Or show me one that says rounds in ones bag are NOT considered ammo that will be used. C'mon...QUOTE THE RULE!!! QUOTE THE RULE!!!

The rule is MY rule. And that is the quote. Please dont ever make the mistake of misinterpreting it. If you guys can make up a silly assed rule that says you can go into my bag for whatever without quoting it or say anything brought within these boundries is useable then I can make the same rule.

[Barrettone]

Doesn't common sense include reading what the rules say?

The rest of the range lawyers here can make whatever point you want but it is pointless. As Nik and others have stated, the range bag is off limits.

Quote me the rule that says rounds CANNOT be taken from the bag for chrono. Or show me one that says rounds in ones bag are NOT considered ammo that will be used. C'mon...QUOTE THE RULE!!! QUOTE THE RULE!!!

The rule is MY rule. And that is the quote. Please dont ever make the mistake of misinterpreting it. If you guys can make up a silly assed rule that says you can go into my bag for whatever without quoting it or say anything brought within these boundries is useable then I can make the same rule.

I am not making it up. Our sport is about freestyle. You are ruining the "freestyle aspect" of pulling chrono ammo. QUOTE THE RULE!!! QUOTE THE RULE!!!

[Flexmoney]

Quote the majic 8-ball.

[JKSNIPER]

Don't see why this is so hard but...

Again for clarification.

The rules say RO s have the right to chrono your "match ammo" WHENEVER they want to.

They are "Recommended " to make it "random".

If the Match calls for 250 rounds and you have 50 on your belt then the other 200 rounds in your bag,suitcase,sadlebags, whatever are MATCH AMMO and can be requested by the RO that you provide some of THEM for chronoing.

If you're having trouble making up your mind which gun you're shooting in the match ?

Once you make up your mind then take the ammo for the other weapon OUT of your bag and leave it in the car.

Problem solved.

NOONE here posted/said they would do searches of your bag or yank stuff out of it or go into it without your permission.

The RO can ask politely ....and you can say no.

Then again if you don't cooperate with a reasonable request from the RO then you probably also have the right to go back home and watch TV or mow the lawn or whatever you would normally be doing if you were not shooting a match.

Get on that "Honey do" list and git-r-done!

We all have to put up with certain inconveniences due to the prediliction of the few among us that seem to be unable to compete on a level playing field.

It is reasonable and the prudent thing for an RO to do to "take" the ammo from a box in the shooters bag rather than the 8 rounds he/she offers up as a sample of their ammo. (By take I mean ask the shooter by asking to see his/her match ammo and then point to a box and ask him/her to open that particular box and provide the 8 rounds from that box)

Don't see whats so wrong with that method and as far as I know theres no obligation or rule that tells the RO to follow us around picking up discarded mags until they have 8 rounds to get the ones that we're actually going to "use".

If I saw an RO just ask shooters to choose their 8 roundsfor themselves....I mean why even bother at that point?

The only guy going to go under the PF is a guy new to reloading or who has made a whoopsie...like me.

You're not going to catch anyone intentionally cheating the chrono by the "honor system" unless he/shes a total idiot.

Hey my son and I just started shooting limited and limited 10 and singlestack so we're new to the whole power factor stuff but if I saw a guy getting over at a match it would burn me up.

I would rather be embarassed and have my reloading mistakes pointed out for everyone to see by my not making the proper PF than have the cheater scam everyone.

If some here NEED it to be written in stone then someone contact this John Amidon guy and tell him that the crowd PLEASE requests a ruling and would like to have a subsequent written ammendment to the rules to follow.

JK

[wide45]

Read it again.

Does not say anything about "match ammo", nor does it say you must collect ammo that the competitor is actually using.

29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition.

[Ming the Merciless]

All this fuss and the level of distrust shown just to catch what, maybe, MAYBE 1 shooter out of 100-200-300 shooters at a match. I could understand the concern if 10-20 or more shooters were cheating the chrono, but I flat don't see it. There might possibly be 1 or 2 shooters at a major match that was deliberately shooting below their declared power factor, so what? He won't be the match winner, we know all those guys too well. He probably won't be the class winner because he will be that sandbagging classifier shooter (which is another issue you all seem to be so worried about.)

If you think it gives the cheater so much advantage, stop spending so much time worrying about it and spend the same amount of time practicing and it won't matter whether some other jerk is shooting minor you'll still beat him bacause he spent all his time figuring out how to cheat instead of practicing.

Do you think TGO, Todd, Travis, Max, Manny, etc... spend ANY time worrying about whether you might be shooting puff loads at the Nationals?

I don't think so!

[TRNinTX]

All this fuss and the level of distrust shown just to catch what, maybe, MAYBE 1 shooter out of 100-200-300 shooters at a match. I could understand the concern if 10-20 or more shooters were cheating the chrono, but I flat don't see it. There might possibly be 1 or 2 shooters at a major match that was deliberately shooting below their declared power factor, so what? He won't be the match winner, we know all those guys too well. He probably won't be the class winner because he will be that sandbagging classifier shooter (which is another issue you all seem to be so worried about.)

If you think it gives the cheater so much advantage, stop spending so much time worrying about it and spend the same amount of time practicing and it won't matter whether some other jerk is shooting minor you'll still beat him bacause he spent all his time figuring out how to cheat instead of practicing.

Do you think TGO, Todd, Travis, Max, Manny, etc... spend ANY time worrying about whether you might be shooting puff loads at the Nationals?

I don't think so!

+1

Well said!

[shred]

I have yet to see a rule cite from the "QUOTE THE RULE!" crowd that says RM can go in your bag and chrono ammo you aren't using. Or go into your car and drive it around for a while. Show up at your house and inspect your press and loading setup. SHOW ME THE RULE!!!!!!

If you don't like agree with the rule as-is (and there's no way you're going to convince me that 'using' means two wildly different things in the very same section of the rules), fix it, don't go around interpreting them with an opinion.

[Barrettone]

I have yet to see a rule cite from the "QUOTE THE RULE!" crowd that says RM can go in your bag and chrono ammo you aren't using. Or go into your car and drive it around for a while. Show up at your house and inspect your press and loading setup. SHOW ME THE RULE!!!!!!

If you don't like agree with the rule as-is (and there's no way you're going to convince me that 'using' means two wildly different things in the very same section of the rules), fix it, don't go around replacing them with an opinion or you're no better than the judges that rule 'The People" really means 'militias'.

That sounds a little antagonistic there Mr. Moderator. Might I suggest you moderate your tone and not make such comparisons directed at the "QUOTE THE RULE!" crowd. Personal attacks are not welcome here. I have not resorted to such tactics in any of my posts or made any such unsavory comparisons. Call me when the mods are held accountable for breaking the forum rules. Im outta here.

[Cardinal]

I have yet to see a rule cite from the "QUOTE THE RULE!" crowd that says RM can go in your bag and chrono ammo you aren't using. SHOW ME THE RULE!!!!!!

If you don't like agree with the rule as-is (and there's no way you're going to convince me that 'using' means two wildly different things in the very same section of the rules), fix it, don't go around 'interpreting' them with an opinion or you're no better than the judges that rule the 2nd Amendment only applies to militias, which is exactly what I see here.

shred, after you've shot a stage, do you go back to your range bag to get ammo to fill up your magazines again?

If you are, then you are using the ammo in the bag. And subject to testing.

And some shooters may not have any loaded mags on him. For example, Saul Kirsch said his routine is to empty all his mags right after he has shot a stage, and not load them until right before he shoots the next one. And if he is the last shooter at the next stage it may mean the "collection officer" has to wait for 55 min until he has finished shooting that stage and can collect the 8 rounds from his leftover mags (afterall, his rangebag is off limits).

(of course in this case, I have NO doubt that if I asked Saul for 8 rounds from his range bag for the chrono, he'd say "sure")

A question to those of you who advocate the bag must be off limit. You are shooting at the 20XX US Open Nationals. You use your normal Major load but also have a few training rounds leftover after practice in your rangebag which only have a 150-155 PF.

On a short 9 round stage you mistakenly pick you training rounds and don't notice until you shoot the stage. Are you now honest enough to notify the match officials and get you match rescored as minor?

Or do you just hurry back to your bag and empty the mag back with the rest of the training rounds an hope nobody noticed. Afterall it was an honest mistake and only a 9 round stage so it won't matter much, right? And it would be a bit excessive to have your entire match ruined for such a "insignificant mistake".

Also, in a Saul Kirsch DVD from one of the US Nationals (2005 or 2007) there was interview with Rob Leatham. he was asked what advice he would give to a new shooter.

One was to learn how to shoot better. The other was to take responsibility for your actions. When some shooters pull a shot of target, their first thought isn't "damn, I must analyze why it happened so it won't happen again", but rather "damn, Quickly, I must figure out how I can use the rules to either get a reshoot or get better points some other way"...

And that got tiring after a while.

[shred]

I apologize if that was taken as a personal attack.. it was only intended to demonstrate the problems with 'if the rules don't say I can't do it, then I can'

If the RM asks me for ammo from my bag, I'll give it to them. If they want ammo from my belt I'll give it to them. If they want ammo from my dropped mags, they are welcome to it. If they want the round in the chamber at 'Make Ready', I'll give it to them. If they want ammo from the box I'm loading my magazines with, I'll give it to them. If they want to put a chrono in the stage, I have no problem with it.

If they want to search my bag or the like I will refuse. That is where I draw the line. That line is considerably further than the rules allow.

[wide45]

So why the big fuss? Nobody wants to search any bags.

Edited October 11, 2008 by wide45

[XRe]

(of course in this case, I have NO doubt that if I asked Saul for 8 rounds from his range bag for the chrono, he'd say "sure")

I think pretty much any shooter on the up and up would respond this way - which is also why it would give most of us pause if someone didn't...

A question to those of you who advocate the bag must be off limit. You are shooting at the 20XX US Open Nationals. You use your normal Major load but also have a few training rounds leftover after practice in your rangebag which only have a 150-155 PF.

Unless you were out practicing for a steel match... what the heck are you doing practicing with rounds that are that radically different than your match loads???

My practice ammo has been known to be hotter than my match loads

On a short 9 round stage you mistakenly pick you training rounds and don't notice until you shoot the stage. Are you now honest enough to notify the match officials and get you match rescored as minor?

Or do you just hurry back to your bag and empty the mag back with the rest of the training rounds an hope nobody noticed. Afterall it was an honest mistake and only a 9 round stage so it won't matter much, right? And it would be a bit excessive to have your entire match ruined for such a "insignificant mistake".

In all likelihood, if any effect was had, it would be a negative impact to your game. At least in my experience, if I'm dialed in on a particular load and feel, anything that radically different tends to cause a less than optimal performance, as the dot isn't going to track or return in the same fashion, and everything ends up feeling all wonker-jawed.

However, if I were ... hmmm, dare I say, stupid enough? ... to have been practicing with those loads, and brought enough of them with me in my bag where I could mistake them for my match ammo, I would be obligated to bring it to the attention of the match administration, and suck it up. Some folks probably wouldn't, taking the same "insignificant" excuse you use above - and I can't say that I would blame them, or disagree that it would have had little effect on a stage like you describe.

Of course, this is one reason why many of us are careful to bring a consistent batch of ammo to a big match, and are certain that that's all that's in the bag... The only way I'd come up with something else is if it were a stray round or two floating around in the bottom of the bag, not in an ammo box, etc... I've stated before that my process involves taking ammo out of an ammo box, and only putting it back into an ammo box, so... There are actually reasons for my insanity that way...

[Cardinal]

Unless you were out practicing for a steel match... what the heck are you doing practicing with rounds that are that radically different than your match loads???

No idea, my practice rounds are also Major

Someone else mentioned having some major loads and minor training loads in the range bag and therefore the loads shouldn't be subject to the chrono.