Match Ammo

[Flyin40]

Hmm, maybe we need to split these threads, but I don't see how an RO can check whatever ammo he wants from your bag. What if you have 3 different loads in the bag because you are shooting USPSA in the morning, steel in the afternoon, and testing a third load in between?

I'm with Nik on this one, you can make me chrono the ammo on my belt at every friking stage, but there is no rule on the books that allows you to go in my range bag. I personally make a point of knowing that the boxed ammo in my bag is ALL fine for the match I'm at because I wouldn't want to grab the wrong thing, but I can't swear that there are no loose rounds of strange vintages rolling around the bottom.

Unless you can point to me the rule in the book which says you can search my bag, you can't. If you insist, I leave, and I would hope anyone with a shred of self respect would too. If you don't trust me, chrono me at every stage or ask me to leave, but keep your hands of my personal property.

He doesn't have to search anything. Its not mandatory that he gets the ammo from your magazine. You have to supply him with a sample. What if the sample he wants is out of your bag??? What are you going to do. The chrono guy can ask to see all your ammo to get the sample. He then can just pick from all the ammo you have. If you don't then your out. So thats how it comes into play, if its in your bag its fair game. If your shooting steel later and he picks that ammo to chrono then you take a chance of going minor.

The whole point is that some people do this on purpose. Cheat, shoot minor loads.

Its good you don't and I would hope noone would but thats just not the case. Some people will try to do anything to get ahead.

I think the purpose is only to keep people from cheating. I make sure I get all the ammo out of my bag except my major match ammo. I leave anything else in the truck.

It has nothing to do with personal property and it has everything to do with the integrity of our sport.

If someone would ask me to search my bag I would say no, for the sole purpose of finding out if everyone else was being searched. I would hand the all the ammo to the MD but I'm with you about searching bags. If they do it to everyone then I"m game. You have to remember its not a right to shoot USPSA. I would hope we all would do things to prevent as much cheating as possible.

As far as handing only ammo off your belt, well thats just not realistic unless you can hold 160 rounds of ammo on your belt for a 160 rd match. That means you have to go in your bag to reload your mags, which means your using ammo out of your bag, all ammo is fair game. If you wear all your ammo on your belt then thats fine but if you go into your bag then give it up to be sampled.

Look at it like baseball, if an Umpire wants to check bats to see if they are corked and take some what he wants and cut them in half to see. If they have bats in a bag and the ump wants the bats out of the bag then either give it up or go home. This is no different.

Anything in your bag could be used for the competition that day. If you don't plan on using it don't bring it.

Flyin40

[shred]

Not in my rulebook:

5.5.5 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy all the requirements

of the relevant Division as defined in Appendix D.

Note the "Used" and not "Possessed".

There are a number of other provisions about how the MD can request sample rounds at any time and re-chrono, but nothing about any and all ammo being fair game.

Do we chrono every gun in the shooter's bag if they aren't using it?

Do we measure every magazine in the shooter's bag if they don't use it?

Do we check ammo in the shooters' car? In the vendor tent? Every box at Wal-Mart within driving range of a multi-day match?

etc, etc, etc..

Intentionally cheating the chrono is an Unsportsmanlike conduct DQ.

If we really wanted to have fun, we could put a chrono in as part of the stage like they do in some of the Asian countries.

[Flyin40]

So your saying you bring ammo to the match just to posses and not use???

If its in your bag the intention is to use it.

"Used" how do you chrono used ammo??? Its easy to play word games with this one, on both sides of the coin.

This rule is obvious to me, slap in the face obvious but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong

Like so many other rules anyone else have a take on this????

5.6.3.2 If you are ask to give a sample, then they say "I want a sample from your ammo in your bag" what is the arguement for not giving it too them???? This is where I having trouble understanding how you could deny it. It doesn't state where the sample comes from so that means it up to the MD??? yes........no....Bueller.......Bueller

Flyin40

Edited April 23, 2006 by Flyin40

[bobert1]

I think any ammo at a stage and that is compatible with the gun being used is subject to testing. The location of the ammo should not matter. If it can be loaded for use at that time , even if by accident then it should be subject to testing. With all the gear ( weight ) most of us carry in our range bags I can't imagine carrying ammo that I had no intention of using.

Edited April 23, 2006 by bobert1

[wide45]

This subject was covered in RO class today.

Asking the competitor for the 8 rounds He would like to have chronoed, falls short.

Any ammo, be it in mag, bag, pocket, etc. can be requested, and taken for chrono.

[shred]

This subject was covered in RO class today.

Asking the competitor for the 8 rounds He would like to have chronoed, falls short.

Any ammo, be it in mag, bag, pocket, etc. can be requested, and taken for chrono.

And what rule was cited to support it that? The rules are clear between possessing and using, and using is what's used in 5.5.5

I totally agree that there is cheating at the chrono, but the way it's run today, only the stupid or unfortunate get caught. I've been to Area matches where they have no scale and just ask "what's your bullet weight?" "um, 900 grains, sir". Geez.

What if I'm sharing a wagon with another shooter at the match, using it as a 'range bag' for two shooters? It's ridiculous to suggest that I have to make major with their ammo and they have to do the same with mine.

[EricW]

You've got to be kidding me. I've now got to vet my ammo bag of any stray 40 round rolling around the bottom that I might have left over from practice or load development, lest I be chrono'd with it? Next someone is going to tell me that they're going to take the baggie of primerless dummy rounds I use in dryfire practice and chrono me with those.

Why not use some common damned sense? Pick up the partially used mags off the ground, out of my hand, or off my belt after the stage, dump 8, and chrono. Is that so hard or so complicated? Placing ammo on my belt or in my gun is demonstration of my intent to use it in the match. I have no qualms about having ammo requested from any of those locations.

Anybody that plans on rifling through my range bag at a match has got another thing coming. Do the same geniuses that thought up this "policy" plan on searching vehicles for contraband ammo? Do the wunderkinden who masterminded this new policy have any concept of how confrontational they have made matches with this?

There's a way to manage matches without resorting to petty tyranny.

[Bob Hostetter]

I have been shooting USPSA since 1985 and have had RO's want ammo from magazines on my belt, magazines on the ground, and ammo boxes in my bag. Some just ask the shooter to give them the ammo. I have never considered it a problem, let alone offensive.

[Paul B]

Any match official may ask me to see if any of the other ammo in my bag is major and I may volunteer to show him my match ammo from my bag, but no one will go pawing around on my person or my bag. My relationship with the match, the people and the organization will be happily ended at that point.

I've too often carried ammo for others or for other matches. I've been in out of state matches with both steel and ipsc loads in my bag.

Thankfully, I usually only carry a stage bag with my ammo for the day in it. No one will go back to may car to look through the rest of my things.

[wide45]

I doubt this is a new policy. You guys are blowing it all out of proportion. Between us, we have shot a lot of matches. I've never had a match official ask for the box of super secret rounds that can't pass chrono. Is it really a problem?

No way they have the time or interest in searching everyone's gear. Don't appear to be cheating, and it won't be an issue.

[skeeter]

I doubt this is a new policy. You guys are blowing it all out of proportion. Between us, we have shot a lot of matches. I've never had a match official ask for the box of super secret rounds that can't pass chrono. Is it really a problem?

No way they have the time or interest in searching everyone's gear. Don't appear to be cheating, and it won't be an issue.

+1

i've been to more than a few large matchs, and all they have ever done is ask for 6 or 8 rounds for the chrono. big deal

[Flyin40]

This was thread was started due to someone saying that ammo in your range bag is not eligible for the chrono. Basically it was said all ammo in the range bag was fair game. Someone then assumed that meant the range officer was going to search bags. At no time did anyone ever say bags were going to be searched. No clue how that even came up.

I posted this off of another thread to get some responses from RO's or Range Masters to get clarification.

From my understanding the sample has to be given when ask. So what if the RO ask for a sample for you the shooter to get out of your range bag??? My take on the rules is you have to supply that sample or pack up.

Luckly in this sport we have just good, honest people shooting so we don't really have to worry about it.

Flyin40

[Nik Habicht]

My take on the rules is you have to supply that sample or pack up.

Mmmmm, No ---- actually what the rulebook mandates, is that the scores of a competitor who refuses to present himself and his gun and ammo to chrono be deleted from the match. So you get to finish ---- but your scores won't count.....

I'll tell you why I have a problem with the interpretation offered by some members of NROI --- an interpretation that RM and A8 Director George Jones yesterday confirmed. I clean my range bag about as often as I wash my truck ---- usually once a year, just before Nationals. There's always remnants of some kind in my bag, and since I shoot 9mm almost exclusively, they'll fit my gun. Major Match ammo comes out of labeled ziploc bags. On top of that, I agree with Shred's reading of the rulebook ---- and with Eric's thoughts on whether this interpretation does anything to solve the minor potentiality of competitors trying to cheat the chrono......

[Flyin40]

Yeah you don't have to pack up. I'm with you on cleaning my bag out once a year. I don't think I have ever cleaned my bag completely out actually.

Thks for letting me know the interpretation. Regardless of how I feel about it I just wanted to know the actual implementation of the rule. Theres been quite a few times I disagreed with how the rules are interpreted and I'm sure there will be many more.

Flyin40

[EricW]

I clean my range bag about as often as I wash my truck

Nik,

Thank god there's two of us. I felt so alone.

If someone wants a sample of my match ammo from my range bag, *I* will be happy to determine what that is and provide it. Although it's exceedingly unlikely that any pistol ammo I have in my bag, car, or shop is minor, I take exception to someone besides me determining what ammo in my bag gets sent to chrono. I shoot too many different sports to have time to sanitize my range bag prior to USPSA matches. There are many occasions where I have a leftover baggie of ammo (that I did not like for whatever reason) sitting in the bottom of my range bag waiting to get burned up on steel or at the next practice session.

If match officials feel that they need to resort to such intrusive measures in order to officiate a match, if they would be so kind as to declare it on the match application, then I could simply choose not to attend. There's at least two other sports I can shoot every weekend, and I'm all to happy to vote with my dollars and take my business elsewhere.

[Barrettone]

This was thread was started due to someone saying that ammo in your range bag is not eligible for the chrono. Basically it was said all ammo in the range bag was fair game. Someone then assumed that meant the range officer was going to search bags. At no time did anyone ever say bags were going to be searched. No clue how that even came up.

I posted this off of another thread to get some responses from RO's or Range Masters to get clarification.

From my understanding the sample has to be given when ask. So what if the RO ask for a sample for you the shooter to get out of your range bag???

Flyin40

+1

It was just a passing comment (and honestly, I thought everybody knew of this policy ). No RO is going to rifle through your bag like he's gestapo (as said above...who has the time??? ). He does however have the right to ask you to open your bag, peer in, and point to what he wishes you to render for chrono ammo. No touchy, feely, here. If you bring it to the match, you will potentially be shooting it. Without this provision, competitors would have carte blanche to pass different loads to chrono and use other ammo in the match. It stinks that a couple of people can ruin it for everybody, but, unfortunately, you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

DVC,

Jeff

Edited April 24, 2006 by Barrettone

[Vlad]

Hmm so how does this silly policy (not based on any actual rules in the book) prevent cheating exactly? Is the chrono RO going to check every pocket of the bag? The shooters pockets? His car? No? Then what the hell is the purpose of having this policy besides just insulting shooters by stating that we don't trust them to play fair?

The guy that wants to cheat will always be able to do so. I'm with Eric on this one, if a match decides to use this "rule" I wish they would put it on the application OR change the damn rule book. I'm generally not worried about the ammo in my bag (loose rounds aside) as I don't bring ammo I know to be bad to a match, I just have a serious issue with a policy which I think is insulting and also not based on the rule book.

[Paul B]

+1 Vlad. Don't ask to "peer" into my bag. It won't happen. The day this sport declines to that level at certain matches (even if caused by a few bad eggs) is a good day to avoid those matches. If cars etc. are subject to scrutiny, just announce it in the match app. so those who feel strongly about it can avoid the match.

I've RO'd CRO'd and been a MD many, times and that is simply not acceptable match management behavior and not supported by any rule I've seen. If there is a question about one competitor then re-chrono them with the ammo they are using to shoot the match.

[EricW]

5.6.3.2 An initial 8 sample rounds for the chronograph test will be

drawn from each competitor at a time and place determined

by Match Officials, who may require additional tests of a

competitor’s ammunition at any time during the match.

5.6.3.10 The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location

and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing

whenever requested by a match official, will be removed

from the match results.

[Vlad]

5.6.3.2 An initial 8 sample rounds for the chronograph test will be

drawn from each competitor at a time and place determined

by Match Officials, who may require additional tests of a

competitor’s ammunition at any time during the match.

The shooters bag is not listed as competitor equipment as far as I can tell (someone correct me if I'm wrong). As such I do see how it can be subject to the rules. Ammo should be drawn from the competitors equipment, ie. his firearm, magazine, etc.

5.6.3.10 The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location

and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing

whenever requested by a match official, will be removed

from the match results.

I will gladly provide sample rounds until I run out of ammo. They key word is "provide" as opposed to hand over my range bag. However I think that if I ran into this kind of policy a lot I wouldn't stop going to matches. I would just start adding certain items to my range bag and make sure they would have to be removed to get to the ammo boxes. Nothing dangerous mind you, just things that I would have to mail order and most likely would come to my house in a plain brown wrapper. It is amazing the things and shapes they can make out of jelly plastics now days and I think I would want to spread that knowledge and surprise with whoever wants to go through my bag.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Vlad

[mactiger]

Ok, guys, let's cool out a little bit. The rule book allows all your ammo to be tested. It doesn't allow any RO, RM, MD, etc., to search or rifle through your bag. That's definitely not what Jeff meant, and not what the rules say. For example: you show up to the first stage at a major match, they ask for 8 rounds and generally hand you a bag to put it in. Some people take them out of their ammo boxes, baggies, whatever--some take them from mags. I've seen very few RO's request ammo from either place specifically, but it can be done. It is a request, however. If you don't want to comply, then don't--the rules cover that situation as well.

This truly isn't new policy, (where'd that "policy" thing come from?) it's just going by the rules. Note that EricW has posted the relevant rules, despite the high drama .

Simply put: any RO can request your ammo at any time, and can ask for some from your magazines, your range bag, etc. Most people will not worry about the ammo you may have rolling around in the bottom of your bag--they'll ask for a sample from something that looks like you are going to use it--boxes, baggies, magazines, etc. They won't (or shouldn't) go into your bag themselves. One caveat, though--if you do carry a quantity of ammo that might not make the PF, and that you could mistakenly hand over, you should probably take that out of your bag. Case in point: at last year's Nationals in Barry, one of the foreign teams all handed over samples of ammo, then wanted them back, because it was "practice" ammo, they said. Unfortunately, they didn't get it back, and all went minor. I think maybe even a couple went sub-minor. You have to wonder about intent when something like that happens.

Most competitors don't, and would not, cheat. Some do--it's human nature and some people just feel the need. The chrono rules are sufficient to cover most ammo "manipulation" problems, but it's difficult to police and unrealistic to think that we can stop someone who is determined to cheat from doing so.

Troy

[Vlad]

Troy, thank your for clearing some of this up. However, if the RO can not go through somones range bag, what is the point of asking for ammo from that bag? Someone wishing to cheat could hand out ammo from the right box, or hide the box of cheater ammo under a gun rag or in a side pocket. If the RO can not look for it, then it seems even less useful to request ammo from the shooters bag.

If I read it correctly the shooter is the one handing over the ammo, and as long as the shooter hands over ammo that makes the power factor, he or she may carry whatever ammo they wish in their bag, even though they proabably shouldn't. How about shooters (friends or family) with more then one loading in their bag for two different shooters?

I'm really confused as how this is supposed to deter cheating.

[Barrettone]

Ok, guys, let's cool out a little bit. The rule book allows all your ammo to be tested. It doesn't allow any RO, RM, MD, etc., to search or rifle through your bag. That's definitely not what Jeff meant, and not what the rules say. For example: you show up to the first stage at a major match, they ask for 8 rounds and generally hand you a bag to put it in. Some people take them out of their ammo boxes, baggies, whatever--some take them from mags. I've seen very few RO's request ammo from either place specifically, but it can be done. It is a request, however. If you don't want to comply, then don't--the rules cover that situation as well.

This truly isn't new policy, (where'd that "policy" thing come from?) it's just going by the rules. Note that EricW has posted the relevant rules, despite the high drama .

Simply put: any RO can request your ammo at any time, and can ask for some from your magazines, your range bag, etc. Most people will not worry about the ammo you may have rolling around in the bottom of your bag--they'll ask for a sample from something that looks like you are going to use it--boxes, baggies, magazines, etc. They won't (or shouldn't) go into your bag themselves. One caveat, though--if you do carry a quantity of ammo that might not make the PF, and that you could mistakenly hand over, you should probably take that out of your bag. Case in point: at last year's Nationals in Barry, one of the foreign teams all handed over samples of ammo, then wanted them back, because it was "practice" ammo, they said. Unfortunately, they didn't get it back, and all went minor. I think maybe even a couple went sub-minor. You have to wonder about intent when something like that happens.

Most competitors don't, and would not, cheat. Some do--it's human nature and some people just feel the need. The chrono rules are sufficient to cover most ammo "manipulation" problems, but it's difficult to police and unrealistic to think that we can stop someone who is determined to cheat from doing so.

Troy

Thanks for clarifying Troy...I think that most RO's, RM's, MD's would never even THINK of going in a shooters bag (hell, I'm scared to open mine up sometimes for fear of what is in there) . It is simply a provision that allows for the testing of ammo that could reasonably be used for the match. I think maybe things got a little blown out of proportion. BTW, You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT...the word "policy" was a poor choice on my part...it IS simply following the rules.

Cheers,

Jeff

Edited April 24, 2006 by Barrettone

[mactiger]

Troy, thank your for clearing some of this up. However, if the RO can not go through somones range bag, what is the point of asking for ammo from that bag? Someone wishing to cheat could hand out ammo from the right box, or hide the box of cheater ammo under a gun rag or in a side pocket. If the RO can not look for it, then it seems even less useful to request ammo from the shooters bag.

If I read it correctly the shooter is the one handing over the ammo, and as long as the shooter hands over ammo that makes the power factor, he or she may carry whatever ammo they wish in their bag, even though they proabably shouldn't. How about shooters (friends or family) with more then one loading in their bag for two different shooters?

I'm really confused as how this is supposed to deter cheating.

Just being able to ask for ammo from the bag isn't really going to deter cheating, nor is it supposed to. The provision in the rules that allows for rechecking the competitor's ammo is the part that is supposed to deter cheating; at least that's the theory. As you say, the shooter can just hand over anything in the bag, unless the RO points to something specific, I suppose. Even then, as you also say, it could be hidden.

The most common "recheck" method I've seen is to either pick up a magazine that was just fired from, or ask for one from the competitor's belt immediately after the COF is done, and get ammo from that. Of course, a determined cheater will have ways....

Hope this helps.

Troy

[Nik Habicht]

FWIW, while I've been playing devil's advocate pretty hard here, I've been attending major matches since 2001. With one or two exceptions, I've always been handed a baggie, and requested to return it with two shooter labels and eight rounds. On the exceptions, someone handed me a baggie, pointed to a specific magazine on my belt, and requested eight rounds from that specific mag.....

So, Eric, dip your toe in the water, and come shoot. That way, if you have enough fun, maybe we can meet at Nationals in a few years.......

Thanks for the discussion folks......