Titegroup In 9 Major?

[Sean Gaines]

I am not at an open shooter, but I got a chance to shoot a buddy of mine's shorty 9 major custom open gun and it was pretty sweet. He is the head Range Officer at the local gun range. I asked him what his load was and he said he was using the following:

5.7 grains of titegroup

federal pistol primers

mixed headstamp brass

124 grain montana gold hollowpoints

his oal is 1.145

He said he used a ced chronograph and was making 168pf out of his gun. I guess my question is has anyone used titegroup for open? I always figured that when using powder for a 38 super or supercomp, or 9major, you wanted to use a slow burning powder to take advantage of the compensation system. titegroup being a fast buring powder seems to be the exact opposite of what the consensus does. I noticed while shooting the gun, the recoil was very soft and didn't have that rattle of the teeth, or concusive blast that I have felt while shooting a .38 super, or supercomp.

Does this sound right? If so I maybe switching over to open

[Alan Meek]

Hodgdon, shows a max load with a Sierra 125 FMJ at 4.4 grains. I personally have not tried to make a major load using titegroup.

It might be possible though. (Scratching my head)

Alan

[PaulW]

Reminds me of when I was trying to use N340 to make major out of a shorty 9mm......can you say auto-deprimmer?

[shred]

I think that load might not be Major. I went up to ~5.2 gr TG and a 121 HAP at 1.240" and was around 140 PF in a Super. Extrapolating from my other TG steel loads, I'd probably need 6.5 or 7 grains (don't do this!) to come close.

Somebody tried TG-for-Major-Open a while back, but I don't remember the outcome.

[eric nielsen]

A top-16 shooter used titegroup in 38super or supercomp, then he got a newer gun that didn't like titegroup as much so he stopped. It's in the forum here if you really want to search for it. The ramped 1911 barrels now are so well-designed that they can contain loads like that, for a while, I guess...

Auto-deprime is what I'd expect, for sure. Probably looking at .002 or 003" expansion at the extractor groove every single firing on a piece of brass.

[iainmcphersn]

I haven't tried to go major with Titegroup but I use it for my minor loads. I'm using Longshot for major. I have noticed that when I get a little warm (4.6+) with Titegroup under the same 125 gr JHP at the same overall length, I get more primer flattening (same primers, Fed SP) than the Longshot. Based on this experience, I would not recommend it.

I shoot a G17 with a KKM 4 comp barrel for major. The major loads only run about 1250 from my G19. Primers look the same fired from either gun.

Edited March 9, 2006 by iainmcphersn

[AlamoShooter]

Yes you can make major with titegroup, but only do it if you want to make your gun stop working. I used titegroup for years for revovler and open auto but I used it for steel at about 140 PF 5.1 with a 121. Major = in 38 supper comp 6.5 with a 121 makes a nice group size at 30 yards and is 1380fps BUT the primers flow back into the firing pin hole and the extractor get brent and the slide gets beat.. but it does shoot flat

I got in a comfortable rut and forgot what I knew about pressure. = save the gun and go to somthing slower.

I have put 80bl of tightgroup though my guns in the past few years and I do like it, but not for major

My gun is better now but it was sick for a wile =- HS6 if you like Hog. or Universal

Edited March 9, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[Matt Cheely]

Everytime I hear the words titegroup and 9mm major in the same sentence I run...

[Harmon]

I cant see this safely being possible

he might be at major...major close to blowing himself up.

the titegroup max book load does make a sweeet steel load in my pistol...but seeing how flat the primers are, i wouldnt go any higher.

there are too many other better powders for making major in the 9mm besides titegroup...and you MAY get to go home with all your fingers.

[roby]

ok, heres a disclaimer: use at own risk!!!

my boss has recently gotten his 5" open gun cut down and rebarreled.now it is using a commander size barrel/comp. the barrel has two ports (schueman). with 5.5grains of titegroup, he is making 172pf. the gun is snappy but handles well and the dot returns back to center very quickly. he likes the way it feels (just got his GM card). the brass shows no visible signs of over pressure and the primers do not indicate any of the symptoms one would suspect. the ammo is loaded long but i am not sure the exact size. he's fired a 100 or so test rounds in my presence. so basically, the gun does make major and the chamber, gun, brass, and primers are holding up fine.

the brass itself is once fired 9mm with nickel plated brass showing the most consistent velocities. now ive talked to him about the problems one may encounter but so far, all has been well. the problem i forsee is in the inherent inaccuracy of the progressive powder measures. you never know when its throwing high or low.

[Sean Gaines]

ok, heres a disclaimer: use at own risk!!!

my boss has recently gotten his 5" open gun cut down and rebarreled.now it is using a commander size barrel/comp. the barrel has two ports (schueman). with 5.5grains of titegroup, he is making 172pf. the gun is snappy but handles well and the dot returns back to center very quickly. he likes the way it feels (just got his GM card). the brass shows no visible signs of over pressure and the primers do not indicate any of the symptoms one would suspect. the ammo is loaded long but i am not sure the exact size. he's fired a 100 or so test rounds in my presence. so basically, the gun does make major and the chamber, gun, brass, and primers are holding up fine.

the brass itself is once fired 9mm with nickel plated brass showing the most consistent velocities. now ive talked to him about the problems one may encounter but so far, all has been well. the problem i forsee is in the inherent inaccuracy of the progressive powder measures. you never know when its throwing high or low.

Roby

your boss is the person I am talking about. He seems pretty excited about his load. I shot the gun and it didn't really feel that snappy to me, but then what do I know. I am shooting a limited gun, where I am used to some sort of kick.

[dirtypool40]

I hate to ask obvious, dumb questions, but WHY are we trying to do this? There are plenty of high density, slower "open powders" that would do a great job in teh same price range, work the comp better and not require the bomb squad to follow you around.

[roby]

I hate to ask obvious, dumb questions, but WHY are we trying to do this? There are plenty of high density, slower "open powders" that would do a great job in teh same price range, work the comp better and not require the bomb squad to follow you around.

who knows. the question that has plauged man for eternity.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I think this is where I insert the official disclaimer: "Professional shooter. Closed Course. Do not attempt at home."

Holy s**t! 5.5 to 5.7 of Titegroup? Why not just use a pinch of C-4? The Hodgden loading manual shows 9mm-length peaking at 4.4 grains. The .38 Super at 5.0. Let's assume just for the sake of argument (it also lowers pressure a bit) that this ammo is being loaded to .38 Super length. (Not bloody likely, with a 124 JHP, but it's a starting point.)

The manual shows 5.0 as peaking (average) at 32K. 5.5 is a 10% increase in powder, which usually means a 20% increase in pressure. So, best-case, this load is running 38K. Not too bad, eh? Except that the average. There will be some over and some under. The overage is easily 5%. That puts our peaks just shy of 40K. In the fantasy world of 9mmMajor, 40K is actually a sane number.

Except.

He isn't loading to .38 Super length. He can't, and load with sufficient neck grip. Also, powder/pressure relations are not linear at the top end of pressure. So let's do a back-of-the-envelope, reasonable but not extreme extrapolation. We'll split the difference between the 9mm and Super data.

We load to a length in-between. That puts us at a "book" figure of maxing out at 32K with 4.7 grains of Titegroup. His 5.5 to 5.7 load then (same calculations) is producing in the best possible world, 42K to 45K. Add in the peaks (again, the 42-45 is the average) and another 5% for the non-linear (unbelievably conservative, I might add) and his load is really doing more like 49K-55K.

Excuse me while I hide under my desk. Because if anything goes wrong, his gun is toast. The slightest powder increase, anything that decreases case capacity, any bullet setback, can boost his pressure past 60K.

Somebody give that man a keg full of something slower, and confiscate his Titegroup. do it for the children, and to keep baby Jesus from weeping.

[Sean Gaines]

I just got back from the range and we chronod his rounds. We used a Pro chrono, his load was 5.6 grains of TG. It was chronoing at 1336. I saw it with my own eyes. he said that the pro chrono, that you need to add about 10fps to it. I said he may want to increase the load just a hair to make sure. But he is fine with the load. There was no pressure signs on the case or the primers. the cases looked fine, the primers were not flatened, there was no flow. Its a pretty sweet load that doesnt rattle your teeth

[DougCarden]

Hey man, he can do what he wants but I would send some loaded rounds to Western Powder company to do the SAAMI test on the ammo before he loads a lot up. It would kinda suck if he shoots some in 100 degree heat and blows up the gun and hurts the ROs and some spectators. When you have this many knowledgable people saying HELL NO than I might call Hogdon and see what they say first.... (PS I didnt listen to people on this board about CLAYS and 147gr bullets in 9x19......I listen now that I had a lot of squib load practice...)

[al503]

Hey man, he can do what he wants but I would send some loaded rounds to Western Powder company to do the SAAMI test on the ammo before he loads a lot up. It would kinda suck if he shoots some in 100 degree heat and blows up the gun and hurts the ROs and some spectators. When you have this many knowledgable people saying HELL NO than I might call Hogdon and see what they say first.... (PS I didnt listen to people on this board about CLAYS and 147gr bullets in 9x19......I listen now that I had a lot of squib load practice...)

Agree. If he wants to use those loads for practice (where no one else can get hurt from a kaboom) then so be it. If he's going to use those in a match where you have an unsuspecting RO that could also get hurt, then that's not acceptable IMHO. He should, at a minimum, send those rounds in to be tested for pressure before putting anyone besides himself at risk.

[Larry White]

I take it this guy is from Texas? So am I, ask him to have that load stenciled on the back of his shirt, that way I know when to leave the bay.------Larry

[Harmon]

somebody buy that man some 7625!

[al503]

I take it this guy is from Texas? So am I, ask him to have that load stenciled on the back of his shirt, that way I know when to leave the bay.------Larry

[TDean]

I'm sure it's a clean load, but damn... 5.0gr of fast burning TG in the 40SW is a 35k pressure load. I shudder to think what the pressure of 5.5gr in a smaller case would be...

My crude calculations tell me the 9mm has 32% less case volume than the 40.

[Patrick Sweeney]

The lack of pressure signs does not mean there is no excessive pressure. Rifles are more fogiving in that regard, they'll give you some kind of a hint. Handguns, generally speaking, by the time you see pressure signs, you're long past the need to have slowed down.

[EricW]

If I was MD and I knew that someone was shooting that load at my match, I would DQ the shooter before he took his range bag out of the truck.

If someone wants to sit alone in the middle of an abandoned gravel pit and beat on old dynamite with a hammer, OK fine, Darwin do your stuff. HOWEVER, when you compete and/or shoot amongst others, you have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to shoot ammo that is reasonably sane and crafted with due diligence. If that's too much to ask, please don't shoot around me or anyone I care about.

Thanks for listening.

[Merlin Orr]

If someone wants to sit alone in the middle of an abandoned gravel pit and beat on old dynamite with a hammer, OK fine, Darwin do your stuff. ........

Thanks for listening.

Nuff said.

[edwin garcia]

Paper Killer and Roby,

Please be aware that both of you are comparing from your Limited /production experience and not from your open division experience. Suggestions:

1. Load another ammo other than titegroup that makes major and compare it with Titgroup load.

2. Also, get another open gun with different ammo that makes major and compare if theres any noticeable difference.

I would still heed the advise of the more experienced shooters who have extensive SAAMI knowledge.

I also was offered to load Titegroup using the same amount by your buddy/boss but testing his load with my open gun, i felt has more "perceived" recoil . I feel it does not give me major advantage than using my current powder choice.

Again, key word is "Perceived recoil" and "Safety". You may still follow his lead but It's upon you to seek the right info to make the better/best judgement.

My 2 centavos.

Cheers