Muzzle / Front Sight Dips In Battery

[D_4_Ever]

I did a search on this topic and didn't see anything, so here 'goes:

Got video of a stage I shot recently. When I slowed it down a bit, I noticed that the muzzle lifts as expected but as the slide transitions from battery to lock up, instead of returning to level sight picture, the muzzle appears to dip, then come back up to level.

On video it looks like the entire pistol is over-rotating in my hands, rather than my hands pushing the muzzle down.

On this stage I do recall feeling as though strong hand wasn't angled right on the grip safety. It wasn't so bad as to require me to re-grip the pistol between shots or anything like that.

I'm also wondering if the recoil spring may be too strong and maybe this is causing the slide to snap into lock-up with too much force.

Review of another stage showed that it was doing the same thing, but to a lesser degree with the same loads. Maybe its just poor grip technique which may be resolved w. practice?.

Maybe I should let the local smith have a look at the recoil spring? Its a stock SVI.

[Front Man]

I think we need to know if it is a comp or non-comp gun just incase.

Sounds like you are not caming the gun with your weak hand.

If the gun functions strong hand and weak hand don't worry about the guide rod spring just yet.

And don't PAY someone to change guide rod springs; you need to learn how to tune your gun yourself.

Welcome to be.com! Stay here and you won't be "D 4 Ever" for long!

FM

Edited February 23, 2006 by Front Man

[caspian38]

This is probably a problem you need some one to LOOK AT ... all sorts of things could be causing the problem ...or you could be compounding more than one problem.

grip

flinch (over compensating ...trying to force the gun back down )

stance (compound problem... leaning back to far robs your arms of leverage. )

wrong spring/Ammo combination

type of gun (just might be to small or big I have a problem shooting glock 27's)

weight of gun / weight distribution

you might try having someone else shoot your gun and see if the problem happens when they shoot it ...if not check your shooting basics (stance, grip, sight pic, trigger squeeze ,breath, follow through.)

if your shooting factory 40 s&w you might try a lighter load. I had this same problem when I was buying ammo of the shelf ...I wanted to shoot faster and was trying to Force the gun.

Welcome to the forum !

C38

Matt Burkett has some timing drills on his web page ... that might help.

Edited February 23, 2006 by caspian38

[al503]

I'm no expert by any means but when the muzzle dips down as you describe, (and it's not a shooter issue,) it could be a sign that the slide could use a little lightening

[Singlestack]

Try a lighter recoil spring.

[Merlin Orr]

Try a lighter recoil spring.

+ 1 for sure...

[eric nielsen]

[never mind]

yes, has to be the spring, that's it...

Edited February 23, 2006 by eric nielsen

[Merlin Orr]

I do not see the link as being applicable to what we are discussing.... When a heavy spring returns the gun to battery it does bring the front down below POA. By doing a double tap - Not an aimed pair - and seeing where the second shot goes you can - to a large extent - get the proper spring weight in your gun.. I do understand that there are a lot of other factors including your pulling the gun down to compensate for recoil.

My.02

[Singlestack]

+1 for sure..

[D_4_Ever]

I think we need to know if it is a comp or non-comp gun just incase.

Sounds like you are not caming the gun with your weak hand.

If the gun functions strong hand and weak hand don't worry about the guide rod spring just yet.

And don't PAY someone to change guide rod springs; you need to learn how to tune your gun yourself.

Welcome to be.com! Stay here and you won't be "D 4 Ever" for long!

FM

Hey thanks all!

This is a Ltd SVI, no compensator or dot. Based on what I've read here and discussed w. a couple local M-class shooters, this weekend I'm going to try some static line practice to rule out the human factor. Also going to switch to a N320/180gr TCJ-FP-MGold load. Only after adjusting to the new components will I begin to experiment w. recoil spring if this sight dipping doesn't stop.

Good news is that there are at least 3 others I know who use the same equipment and loads. This should mean that we won't be talking apple and oranges. - Cheers.

[DMH]

Don't forget to look at your guide rod. Some prefer tungsten some plain stainless.

It all makes a difference.

[Skywalker]

D,

as Merlin pointed out, there is a simple method to tell if you're running the appropriate recoil spring in your gun.

Set up a target @ coupla feet in front of you, then shoot 2 shots the fastest you can pull the trigger (and never mind the aiming of them).

Try and notice where the second hit goes compared to the first one: if the second hit is lower than the first one, you definitely have a too strong recoil spring, which is pushing so hard the slide in battery that the muzzle dips at the end of each cycle; if your second hit is still above the first one, then you have a too light recoil spring, thus the gun is already in battery but is still recoiling.

In the second case, rather than switching to a stronger recoil spring, you might want to experiment with different combinations of main and recoil springs, since part of the muzzle rise can be traced to a strong mainspring that is hard to overcome by the slide: the slide actually pushing back against the mainspring might be causing too much momentum on your wrists and too high muzzle rise.

FYI, in my SVI 5" competition (where I shoot 185grs bullets @ 175 PF) I use a combination of 14# recoil spring and 17# main spring: with the above test both 1st and 2nd shots are at the same height level.

[Powder Finger]

I agree that it's probably this spring, I also agree with the target test.

Having said that you have an cool chance to learn something.

If the video is the only way you knew of this problem & you now know

everything thats going on (from video) make your focus for a practice or 2

to SEE it happen. As soon as you can see it you will no longer be in D class.

THEN FIX THE GUN!

[wide45]

If the gun is still stock, it is not the spring, or the slide weight.

It's you.

Don't be deluded

[XRe]

If the gun is still stock, it is not the spring, or the slide weight.

It's you.

Don't be deluded

Uh??? Your last sentence also implies that.. you shouldn't assume that everything is "right" just because a gun is "stock", either

[Jasonub]

timing issue or spring issue. try putting in a 12 or 11 ismi

[eric nielsen]

Eject, wide45. You can't save this one, I tried...

[Singlestack]

Eject, wide45. You can't save this one, I tried...

Nobody is saying you are wrong Eric, but a recoil spring is a pretty cheap experiment.

[2alpha]

A new shooter is more than likely pulling the pistol down in recoil, very common for newbies. Work on maintaining a consistant grip, not changing it before or after the shot. Do some quick 2 shot drills into a dirt berm where you can see the hits, just look at the berm and adjust your grip until the shots stay close together, back up some and refine it more. When you make it to A you might play with springs and stuff but as a beginner you need to get a good grip on the basics.

[XRe]

Look... the shooter can affect everything. The shooter can adjust to pretty much anything. Run Burkett's full set of timing drills, including elbow positions, etc. Do it with whatever gun you're running now. Run full mags at each. Then burn a couple of hundred rounds into the berm, using the new grip/stance/arm positions that you've worked out and just watch the sights move. After that, you can pretty much shoot anything as well as you possibly can at the time. However - at some point, the gun becomes ergonomic, and it's beneficial to switch spring rates, etc, in order to get a gun that is easier to time - ie, doesn't flip as much, locks up more gently, etc.

My point was - to say that "if the gun is stock, it must be you" is pretty short sighted... If after running the drills, and the gun starts returning to POA, you decide it's now flipping too much, and you're too firm on the gun to get it to run flatter, switch recoil springs around. Actually, if you're running something heavier than a 14#, switch it now, and do the timing drills to that - I run a 12, some run 10s or 11s or 14s.

Sheesh, what is it w/ everyone getting all pissy around here lately??? Group PMS???

[2alpha]

I just dont think weaker recoil springs directly cause anyones muzzle to dip less. Its a bandaid convering up the real problem. Why they work at all is becuase of less resistance for the slides rearward movement, that translates into less effort by the shooter trying to "control" the recoil. If you have the basics of a good hold down it doesnt matter what recoil spring you use the muzzle wont dip. Recoil takes the muzzle up, while the muzzle is up or as it is coming down the gun returns to battery, the only way the muzzle ever dips below the point of aim is when the human holding it forces it down there, as in trying to control recoil. It happens so fast that you cannot react and are pulling it down out of recoil as it is returning on its own which forces it lower than wanted.

Learn to hold the pistol with no more than the effort needed to hold it on target and not slip in your hand on recoil. Teach yourself to let the machine work against you, become a machine and do not react, anticipate, or relax before during or after the shot. Learn you pistol and this will become second nature. After you have put in the time learning this and you want to experiment with springs or pogo sticks or whatever go ahead, just never forget the basics are everything, the rest is just entertainment.

I write this not to flame or start a flame war or to hurt any feelings, just my opinion after doing this awhile.

[dvc40jim]

While I agree that there is not one specific direction to take to completely eliminate the dip in the muzzle it has been pointed out that some factors greatly contribute to increasing dip.

If the recoil spring is too heavy, it's a problem and many times the most obvious problem is dip in the muzzle. While a shooter can certainly create that dip for themselves with a poor grip, or poor shooting technique, the spring can't be completely dismissed. A simple test letting the slide go into battery from slide lock will illustrate that dip. It is entirely possible for the dip to be caused primarily by using too heavy a recoil spring.

[XRe]

the only way the muzzle ever dips below the point of aim is when the human holding it forces it down there

This is simply not true. With any gun and load combination, there is an optimal set of spring ratios (main, recoil) that will act in a way as to return the muzzle to POA pretty much on it's own. Go too heavy on the recoil spring and the gun will close hard and force the muzzle forward (which results in a downward motion, due to the hinge point at the shooter's wrist). Go too light, and the gun doesn't close fast or firmly enough, and the muzzle will stay up, as a result (and may experience FTF jams).

You can prove this to yourself. Shoot the gun holding it with the middle finger and thumb only, in a loose grip between them. No, it's not pretty, and it's not how you'd want to shoot. But, watch the muzzle. Now, change spring rate and watch it again.

Finding the spring rate in your gun with your load that does the *right* amount of work closing the slide makes your job much easier to learn, expends less energy to do your job, etc.

That said....

Pretty much any shooter can learn the timing of pretty much any gun, and have it come back to point of aim (or appear to dip, or appear to stay up and get pulled down). When shooting, there is definite influence from the shooter, and I would not disagree that the shooter is the point to start in troubleshooting this problem.

BTW - I'm not flaming you. This is simple physics, and is a function of the way the gun works

[Ron Ankeny]

Talk about deja vu. I posted several years ago about my experiments trying to change the timing of the gun (.45 SS) by swapping recoil springs around. I'll see if I can dig it up.

To be honest, I would go with the spring rating most often recommended by accomplished IPSC shooters for your gun/ammo combination before getting too carried away with trying a multitude of various spring options. Then learn the timing and learn to see what the gun is doing by watching the sights as they lift and return.

Do you have a couple of really good shooters locally who would be willing to shoot the gun and give you a hand?

[Bigbadaboom]

Dave is dead on regarding this issue. Having the right spring ratio helps with recoil control. I shoot a 2lb 14 oz. (When loaded) STI with a unique cut slide and I run an 11 lb. recoil spring with a 14 lb. main spring. When I put in a 14 lb. recoil spring my front sight starts dipping a lot more at cycle recovery and when I put in a 16-18 lb. main spring I get a lot more sight rise at recoil and my grip doesn't change. A heavier recoil spring is pushing the slide back into battery harder and faster, therefore kinetic energy is going to cause more forward force on the gun hence pulling it away from the shooter faster forcing the muzzle down harder. A heavier mainspring causes more resistance in the slide cocking the hammer therefore pushing harder toward the rear when the recoil spring is lighter. You can put in a 16 lb. recoil spring and an 18 lb. main spring and you'll get more front sight dip and less sight lift. You can put in an 11 lb. recoil spring with an 18 lb. main spring and you'll get a lot more more sight lift. You can put in an 11 lb. recoil spring and a 14-15 lb main spring and get less of both. I've been through all of this and I do have a consistant grip and I don't "Flinch".

Saying that recoil and sight control is all in the grip no matter what you do with the springs, gun weight, etc. is inane. There is a reason they call it a "Recoil" spring.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Bigbadaboom