Sestock Posted February 22, 2006 Posted February 22, 2006 Does IDPA promote an equipment race by its restrictive rules? To me having very restrictive equipment rules will only make the truely competitive look for ways of bending those rules. I had a Para built(not modified) to meet all of the ESP rules last year, it is not stock, but it fits the box and weight rules. If you call me a gamer, I will take it as a compliment.
Duane Thomas Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I think it works the other way, actually. Divisions/sports with wide-open equipment rules foster an equipment race because you can have pretty much any modifications you want. This also promotes a certain, how shall I put this, sameness in guns. Look at USPSA Open. How many people competing in this division don't run a S_I in .38 Super/9x23/etc. with compensator, red dot sight and "big stick" magazine? In Limited it's the exact same thing, only in .40 instead of .38, and with a shorter mag and no dot/comp. But in Production, with its very restrictive rules on allowable modifications, we see Glocks and SIGs and Berettas and HKs and CZs and Smith & Wessons and.... The same holds true in IDPA. Many, many different guns are used because, with only a few modifications allowable, many different guns can be fully competitive.
Ted Murphy Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 +1 on Duane's post. FWIW, as long as you have a competition, there will be an equipment race of some kind. No restrictions or lots of them it does not matter. I do think IDPA SSP and USPSA production rules do a good job of keeping stock guns competitive. I do think IDPA's CDP and ESP rules make just enough things legal for the tinkerers and excuse makers to have plenty of fun without really affecting their scores much one way or another. I've seen plenty of ESP and CDP trophies won with single stacks with not much more than a magwell and trigger job done to it. (if that much) from looking at the vanek thread, trying to "bend those rules" and be smarter than the-powers-that-be does not always pay off anyway Ted
tnroadrunner Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Now that they changed the weight limit in SSP, that knocked out all the Para LDA's, unless Para changes the weight by 1 ounce.
dirtypool40 Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 (edited) "Do what you have to do...they will find a way to take the fun out of it and kill all your ideas...It is do as I say or else... " - Tightloop Listen to 'Loop. <edited to remove perceived personal atack>es I am a fan of the concept of IDPA, just not it's execution. I generally stay away from these dogma discussions where the IDPA folks say they like the Emporer's clothes, but once in a while I chime in. The short version is "YES" the rules do create an equipment race (or rather a chase) as they try to figure out what the "intent" of this or that was, and we struggle to buy this weeks approved goodies. Ask to see some holster collections by those that tried to stay current since 1997 when I started. Or how about Wheel guns, don't even go there!!! The SSC / 1911 Society matches are really the nearest forefather of IDPA's type of equipment in action shooting. Why don't they have this kind of trouble? I love that gear, and those matches, but I am one of the legions of shooters that IDPA runs off at almost every turn. Rules, equipment or otherwise, should be objective, clear and stable. IDPA hasn't really met any of those. They are quick to write a rule, yet slow to admit they went off half cocked and correct the misstep. One main problem is in it's haste to NOT be USPSA, they failed to learn a lot of lessons about how to write objective rules. As an easy, text book example let's look at ESP / CDP. Why split SA guns by caliber (not even pf but specific caliber ?!?!?) but leave all DA guns lumped in together. Sig 245 against a slicky-boy G34. G29 vs. SW PC5906, rrrrright. ESP / CDP should probably be one division. Something clear and simple like; No Comp, no dot, .40 and 165pf to make major and fits in the box. Bam, done. I don't even see the point of the weight rule. They really passed on a chance to make IPSC Standard guns legal and get more cross over from good shooters, and make USPSA limited guns legal with maybe changing a magwell and mags. PF is PF. you put a 180 going 925 in an ACP, GAP, 10mm, or evil .40 you are going to have very similar recoil. Why does this science mystify IDPA? Some folks want to shoot curios, like the 10mm and GAP to show how tactical or esoteric they are. Some folks want to shoot a caliber they already have, like me and a .40. If you went to one division and pf for ESP/CDP I bet most folks shooting "major" would still shoot 1911's in .45 ACP. I know I have one and would alternate between that and my .40. Why? It's fun, easy, lots of people make a good turn key .45 ACP, it's THE classic combo of gun and platformand it's tacticool, Bill and Col. Cooper say so. Let people choose the caliber that fits them. Most folks <edited> can agree that having a division one one specific caliber seems a little odd. Or do you want your own little pond just for 9x19 (not to include 9mm Luger or Para)? IDPA is the little league feeder for USPSA and the gun rags have chosen to preach it in every article. Great, it get's new folks out shooting. Problem is every article on any new pocket sized 10mm DAO says it's the ultimate IDPA gun, so new folks buy the wrong stuff, and then when they come out they find there are only one or two guns that still meet the ever changing rules of IDPA. By the time shooters come over to USPSA's stable rules and objective scoring they are sick of buying new equipment and have a really short fuse on what's legal. If you keep making new rules without thinking about them, then you keep making one gun the be all end all....for this week. How happy are the revolver guys? Are the S_I shooters really winning because their guns are not all steel 1911's? Did TGO win all those limited titles because of the bull barrel in his gun? Yeah, keep telling yourself it's that. We've said it to death; it's the indian not the arrow. Give us stable rules and let people experiment with their guns. Sort the guns by action type and maj/min and let us play. Edited February 23, 2006 by dirtypool40
vincent Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 (edited) I don't think people are going to bend the rules, they are just going to figure out what is working for most folks and then move to that setup. I don't think there's a difference in IDPA and USPSA about folks basically using the same gear. While I'll agree that people may start coming to iDPA matches with just about anything, folks seem to gravitate toward the same thing after they shoot IDPA for awhile. SSP/ESP: G34 or G17 (9mm of course) ESP: S_I or SS in 9mm CDP: S_I or SS in .45 ESR: S&W 625 SSR: Never seen anyone shoot this division, so I dunno The Kahrs, CZ's, Sigs, Berettas, etc are at a huge minority compared to Glocks, and SS 1911's. Edited February 23, 2006 by vincent
n2ipsc Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 ...I would shoot it again if the rules made sense and were stable... +1 on that...
p99shooter Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I got two things to say here: 1 - Fish ON! Another contrived thread to stir the pot. 2 - Mods: Why is a comment like Tightloop's allowed here? It's an obvious bash against IDPA and has no constructive value. There is a "No antagonistic tones will be tolerated" rule for the USPSA/IPSC forum; why not have the same rule here?
f250sd Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 DIRTYPOOL40 for IDPA President!!!! Dirtypool40 you nailed that one. Sestock, I'm always glad to see another gamer standing proud.
shred Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Looks like TL fixed it himself.. anyway, mods don't always read every post of every thread anymore... best bet is to PM one with objections rather than posting.
Merlin Orr Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I got two things to say here:1 - Fish ON! Another contrived thread to stir the pot. 2 - Mods: Why is a comment like Tightloop's allowed here? It's an obvious bash against IDPA and has no constructive value. There is a "No antagonistic tones will be tolerated" rule for the USPSA/IPSC forum; why not have the same rule here? Hell P99, don't let ole TL get your goat. He's just grumpy in his twilight years.. He did come by his opinions honestly though. 7 State Championships in at least 4 different states and several runner-ups with a boatload of smaller notches on his singlestack.... That's the ones that I know of.
dirtypool40 Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Ted and I can't agree on what day it is, so I am certain he'll be here blindly defending IDPA without even reading this, I read enough to see this. I would have been edited for posting that about someone else. OK, I'll take a self imposed time out from IDPA threads for a while and just shoot it...if they still allow me to. Ted, as I said in the PM, I meant no harm, only humor at how you and I are always on the opposite side of every issue, and I do hope I get to buy you a beer some day. Peace out.
Chills1994 Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 I haven't been into IDPA and/or IPSC shooting all that long, about 2 years. Luckily the 2 pistolas I bought over 10 years ago were not banned by the latest rule changes. Now, I would be torqued if I was really into IDPA for 5 years or so and purchased a handgun(s) a year or two ago that I thought would be just the perfect gun for IDPA. Then they changed the weight limits. There are some people who are stuck w/ a stainless Sig they can't shoot in IDPA. I supposed they could go shoot USPSA Production with it, if those kinda matches are going on locally. But if not, I guess that shiney Sig becomes a safe queen. (Or they could try swapping in plastic parts, shave metal off the frame, etc.) There are going to be all sorts of people who will be trying to wiggle their way around the rules to gain a competitive advantage Doesn't matter if it's major league baseball (read: steroids), NASCAR (tweaked body designs), or shooting IDPA (like shooting in the dirt when the circle has been cut out of the target, Bill Drill style). I guess that's where living by the letter of the law(or rules) versus living up to the spirt of them comes in. Some people will take the high road, some will take the low road. No, I don't think the rule changes initiated an equipment race for the competitors. Now for the manufacturers, that's a different story. If they wanna market to IDPA, they have to design and produce guns that will fit the parameters set forth by IDPA. I couldn't tell ya' if sales of the stainless Sigs were adversely affected after the rule changes, but with the handgun market so small, every manufacturer is clamoring for their share. Chills
Flexmoney Posted February 23, 2006 Posted February 23, 2006 Folks. Your gonna get the heavy hand here. And, for future reference... There is a group around here that is not very warm with IDPA and their policies...they will complain that we are too heavy handed in moderating. And, there is another group that is very pro-IDPA...they will complain that we don't moderate enough. Folks...we don't need the drama. Here is some direction. Discussion is fine. Information exchange is fine. Different points of view are fine. Be respectful. If your post isn't geared at bettering the sport, if it is more of a shit-stirring post, then don't post. If you are posting to exchange information, with a goal of bettering the sport...then post away. It's real easy to tell. Go look in the mirror and ask yourself what your real motivation is. (this works for both sides of the aisle) This forum isn't the place for the pro and anti IDPA'er to fight it out. You aren't going to change the others minds anyway. All you will do, from either side, is make it hard for those in the middle to get decent information. Instead of getting all bent out of shape and poking (virtual) fingers in each others chest...go kiss your woman, hug your kid, do some push-ups, heck...dry-fire even. Chances are, the person you are fighting with here would be the one person in a thousand that shared your interest if you were in a room full of random people. [edit to add: I apologize if you posted in this thread with good intentions. I'm afraid we are throwing the baby out with the bath water on this one.]
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