Which Way Do You Turn?

[cliffy109]

I tried the "search" feature and couldn't find anything on this (actually couldn't find anything at all which makes me think there is a problem with this feature). Which way do you turn and why on a stage that has you facing up range before the buzzer? This is a topic that has baffled me because I seem to do it backwards but nobody I talk to can give me a good explanation.

Here is what I see:

1. Turn to the strong side. Guys that do this do a lot of shuffling. It takes a minimum of three different foot motions and most people and up shuffling after that. This is, hoever, the most commonly seen turn.

2. Turn to the weak side. This is the one I use. Its a two stage movement. Strong side leg makes one large step across the body. Once planted, the shooter pivots on the balls of both feet. This puts the strong side leg a bit behind the support side which is not ideal for the isocelese shooter, but perfect for the Weaver stance. Its a very consistent and fast move. It takes very little practice. The down side is that it takes some space to accomplish. If you're shooting from a box, there may not be space to pull it off. You have to start about 2 feet to the left of where you want to end up.

3. I've never seen this one done, but there is an alternative. This would be to pirouette on the ball of your strong side foot. This is a one step move, but requires a slick floor and shoes with poor traction. I've been practicing it, but I'm not sure how it will work on the range.

So, what do you use and why? Why do I see Master class shooters turning to the strong side but seem less than sure-footed about it. There's always these little foot movements after they are turned. Maybe this isn't a hinderance because they are drawing while this is going on, but it would seem to me that a better mousetrap would be the weak side turn.

[TriggerT]

I turn to the strong side 99.9% of the time. There is much less of a chance of getting to fast on the draw, and breaking the 180 this way. To be honest, on "Turn and shoot" stages like an El Pres, my week side foot never makes the turn 100%. Strong side is both a safety factor for me, and it seems faster. I took the last three months COMPLETELY off from shooting, and last week still managed a 5.33 on an El Pres. That's good enough for me.

Edited February 21, 2006 by TriggerT

[Merlin Orr]

Do it on the clock. Strong side is faster for most and safer for all. IMHO

[XRe]

I turn strong side, usually, unless there's an advantage other wise. If you snap around, the gun is past the 180 more quickly. Here's the steps...

Setup with weight on the weak foot. Snap head to target, begin draw, and step around to the strong side w/ strong foot, basically place it pointing in the final direction roughly behind the weak foot. At this point, gun should be coming up, as you're facing down range. Weak foot lifts and steps down to it's final position. That's two steps. You need to keep knees slightly bent, and be smooth, so you don't lose your balance. It requires a little bit of flexibility, too. You can also step around w/ strong foot as far as you can, plant weak foot, and then adjust strong foot.

Check out Steve Anderson's videos, too. He turns and shoots with the weak foot behind, and then adjusts stance during a reload, etc.

[Sherwyn]

One of the main reasons given against the weak side turn is the possibility of drawing too soon and breaking the 180 rule. The faster the draw, the easier for this to happen.

With the strong side turn, the gun can be headed toward the target much sooner.

That said, I still use the weak side turn often because I prefer to shoot right to left so target placement sometimes makes it the best option for me.

[Carlos]

Do it on the clock. Strong side is faster for most and safer for all. IMHO

Agreed. I have learned from some USPSA GMs that they found it to be faster. Does that make it the last word? No. Personally, I found their advice valid in practice.

NOTE: I have also heard that some shooters who are more into IDPA than me believe that the weak side turn should be used in IDPA: thier justification was something along the lines of retaining the gun. I do not agree or disagree. However, I do use the strong side in all competition.

Regards,

D.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Carlos

[Jake Di Vita]

With a strong side turn, you can easily get it done in 2 motions. I have also found this the fastest way for the most part.

If you would like, you can take a video of you doing a turn and draw and post it in the video training tips forum and get suggestions from the membership here.

[Bigbadaboom]

Here is what I see:

1. Turn to the strong side. Guys that do this do a lot of shuffling. It takes a minimum of three different foot motions and most people and up shuffling after that. This is, hoever, the most commonly seen turn.

I recommend that shooters learn how to perform a proper military "About face". You then modify it so that at the end of your turn you are standing with your feet at proper width apart. This is absolutly the fastest, most economic way, IMO, to turn no matter which direction you are turning (if turning to your left just reverse it). You move one foot one time and then pivot, that's it.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Catfish]

strong side, load up my wieght on my left (weak) foot, and then spring around. As Jake says, it can be done very quickly and with a minimum of movement.

As for the idpa crowd, when you turn away from the gun, your vest has a very nasty habit of getting in the way of your draw. Turn into the gun and the vest is not a problem.

[shred]

Assuming you pivot completely around one leg or the other (pretend you have a wooden peg-leg for a second..) Turning to your weak-side (peg-leg on weak side leg for this) gets you past the 180 guicker.-- it's only 1/4 turn instead of 3/4 if you had the peg on the other leg.

Now if you turn some other way not involving rotating around one leg or the other, all bets are off..

[Harmon]

i do the strong side turn...i only know one master class shooter who does it the other way...and shes a woman...they do everything different.

its certainly faster to do the strong side turn for me...a good 2/10s of a second

try em both against the clock and see what you think.

Harmon

[cliffy109]

i do the strong side turn...i only know one master class shooter who does it the other way...and shes a woman...they do everything different.

its certainly faster to do the strong side turn for me...a good 2/10s of a second

try em both against the clock and see what you think.

Harmon

Hmmm... looks like I need my own timer if I'm going to get serious about this aren't I? Any suggestions on brand?

[Merlin Orr]

i do the strong side turn...i only know one master class shooter who does it the other way...and shes a woman...they do everything different.

its certainly faster to do the strong side turn for me...a good 2/10s of a second

try em both against the clock and see what you think.

Harmon

Hmmm... looks like I need my own timer if I'm going to get serious about this aren't I? Any suggestions on brand?

Look here for the one I bought and like....

[boo radley]

Shred -- I can't visualize how turning to the *weak side* is faster.

Assuming a right-handed shooter, isn't turning CLOCKWISE faster -- I would think that would be the same as saying turning to the "strong side."

Or safer, for sure, since the holster/gun face the target during almost all of the turn, instead of vice-versa?

[shred]

Faster to not break the 180.. faster to turn, that depends..

Thinking about it like a circle, looking straight down and assuming one leg stays where it is and only rotates, turning strong-side to me means the gun is at the center of the circle, while turning weak-side means the gun is at the outside of the circle.

[cliffy109]

I recommend that shooters learn how to perform a proper military "About face". You then modify it so that at the end of your turn you are standing with your feet at proper width apart. This is absolutly the fastest, most economic way, IMO, to turn no matter which direction you are turning (if turning to your left just reverse it). You move one foot one time and then pivot, that's it.

Is there a smilie that expresses a sheepish grin? I need it right about now. Don't ask me why, but for some reason I had only thought about movement that has the feet moving forward and then pivoting. Appearently, the people I watched were also thinking this and that is why I saw so much shuffling. Your comment about a modified military "about face" suddenly flicked the switch for me. "Ah... feet to the rear! That works." I can see how that will be faster and its fairly ambarrassing to admitt that I hadn't considered this.

Sorry all for the ignorant post.

[Shooter Grrl]

I was taught to turn "with the gun" - keeps the movement of the gun to a minimum for your target presentation. Does that make sense? Also, snap your head around - the body and feet will follow.

[Bigbadaboom]

oops! didn't work.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[XRe]

Thinking about it like a circle, looking straight down and assuming one leg stays where it is and only rotates, turning strong-side to me means the gun is at the center of the circle, while turning weak-side means the gun is at the outside of the circle.

This is true, about where the gun is in the rotation, but.... you only need to turn a quarter of a circle in either direction (give or take, depending on your setup and draw) to not break the 180??

In my case, the gun (in holster) is roughly oriented where a target would be straight ahead of me. If I turn 90 degrees to the strong side, the gun is lined up almost on the 180, but slightly rearward. If I turn 90 degrees to the weak side, the gun is lined up almost on the 180, but slightly foreward. The net result is the same - I have to go a few degrees further around turning strong side, but not another half turn....

Turning weakside, the gun has to travel further - which means my hands need to find something with higher angular velocity and momentum. It also means the RO might get the wrong impression if the gun comes out too close the 180 (not that I'm trying to hide my movement from the RO, but in quick movements, things can be misperceived). Turning strong side, the gun remains (ideally) relatively motionless, and just spins in place, making it easier to find. And, it's less likely that the RO will misperceive my draw point, as the gun's not right in his face when it comes out of the holster.

All that's well and good, but... at least in the past, it was also noticeably faster (like a couple of tenths) for me to turn strong side, so....

[AlamoShooter]

sounds like 'Terminology" is holding up progress. Would a strong side turn be?= with the gun side leg doing the moving? I thought yes. and a week side turn would be with the non gun side leg doing the moving I think yes. now you still have two ways for the legs to move in each turn.

The second part is with the gun in the center for a right hand shooter the right leg can kick back piviot on the left, ...or the left leg can come around the shooters face to piviot on the right leg.

Or the the shooter could piviot on the right leg and have the left leg kick around the back of the shooter

Or piviot on the left and bring the right leg round the shooters face, = with the gun on the out side of the turn

So four ways to turn, not two...That is why it is somthing you Do ...not as easy to talk about.

You can piviot on the left leg with the right leg going doun range in the turn and have the gun in the outside of the turn but still clearing 180. just as fast as the gun in the center and the left leg crossing on the up range side across the shooter's face... piviot with the gun in the center.

Clock wise piviot on the Left I would call a Strong Side turn= ?is that OK as a label?

Counter Clock wise piviot on the left = The gun and right leg go Up Range I would call that a "week side Reverse Turn"

Piviot on Strong side leg Clockwise the left leg puts the gun in the center of the trun and crosses the shooters face with the gun in the center of the turn would be a "Week Side Turn" is ? that OK as a label?

if the the shooter piviots on the stong leg and the left leg goes couter clockwise I would call that a "Strong side Reverse Turn"

I do a clockwise turn and piviot on the left leg and I call it a strong side turn

If Jake does his video that would be grate = clockwise turn on the week leg is a strong side turn clockwise piviot on the strong leg is a week side turn.

counter clockwise is a reverse tunr week or strong.

Oh = I just made this up so we could all taulk the same language

Edited February 22, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[Bigbadaboom]

I've got my turn and draw down to 1.1 sec and since my regular draw is around .90 I'm not spending a lot of time on the turn part. I've got video but I'll have to wait untill I get to work and upload it to Roxio.