Nroi Ruling On Vanek Trigger For Production

[driver8M3]

What I think is crazy is the fact that Charlie can't move a pin, but we could mill our slides to put on a set of Bo-Mars. Those 2 rules do not make sense with each other.

+1

I was just coming back here to post the same exact thing!

guys, what's really crazy is the rules say (and this is a direct quote from the rulebook) "trigger work...is allowed." but somehow moving a pin on the trigger itself does not fall under "trigger work." i am and !

[Clay1]

I want to start off by saying that I haven't invested in one of Mr. Vanek's trigger jobs.

A comment on replacing the stock trigger with a Lighten Strike aluminum trigger was discussed recently here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...luminum+trigger

I see this as in the same vein, no external mods in production.

I feel for those of you that have invested in a wonderful trigger. I also feel for the ROs that are suppose to catch this.

Rick

[diehli]

I also feel for the ROs that are suppose to catch this.

No shiitake. You really have to know what you're looking for.

[shred]

I also feel for the ROs that are suppose to catch this.

No shiitake. You really have to know what you're looking for.

..during the time the pistol is out of the holster..

unless somebody protests it.

[sandankenpo]

I don't think I would want to be the r.o. calling a d.q. on this, to be visual trying to catch this each time someone comes to the shooting line

[XRe]

I don't think I would want to be the r.o. calling a d.q. on this, to be visual trying to catch this each time someone comes to the shooting line

Wouldn't be a DQ - you'd just be moving them to L-10 or Limited...

[shred]

I don't think I would want to be the r.o. calling a d.q. on this, to be visual trying to catch this each time someone comes to the shooting line

Wouldn't be a DQ - you'd just be moving them to L-10 or Limited...

Open, actually. The idea being to discourage such shenanigans and avoid any other need to relocate a competitor during the match.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or

other requirements of a declared Division during a course

of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if

available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for

no score.

[SRT Driver]

The RM's better stake out the safe areas before chrono!!!

[SteveZ]

...and it probably wouldn't be caught by an RO running a stage...but more likely the guys running the chrono when they get a good look at the gun while testing it....especially if they're looking for such things.

[Vlad]

Hey guys I think it is a strange interpretation too and a bit late to boot, but it might be that someone is trying to reign in the "production" glocks a bit. Not for nothing but some of them have triggers lighter, shorter, and cleaner then most factory SINGLE ACTION 1911's. At some point you have to ask if that is a double action trigger anymore or even a safe action trigger by any stretch of imagination.

I'm not saying it doesnt suck for folks that spent the money but .. at what point do you draw the line? IPSC and their minimum trigger pull rule makes a lot more sense the longer I think about it.

[Matt Cheely]

I'm guessing that this decision will push a few more shooters to XD's with the canyon creek trigger job...

[Chriss Grube]

Well I seem to recall a issue about 9 major in limited and some of the reasoning was it would make a whole bunch of guns useless, seems they just did the same damn thing. There seems to be to much picking and choosing what is acceptable. Certain factory "custom shop" parts are ok and others are not? HK makes a factory magwell but it isn't ok however you can change all the control on a 17 to the 34 style and that is fine. No rhyme or logic to it.

[SRT Driver]

To all the Vanek owners:

Charlie returned the original trigger bar with the gun.

I put the original trigger bar back in and it is still about 2lb. Not as light but usable.

Good enough at this point!!

[bgary]

Well I seem to recall a issue about 9 major in limited and some of the reasoning was it would make a whole bunch of guns useless, seems they just did the same damn thing. There seems to be to much picking and choosing what is acceptable.

OK, that's one way to think about it.

Another way to think about it is: "USPSA, as the rules body in the US, has an obligation to its members to draw a clear line between 'what is allowed' and 'what is not allowed', in order to maintain stability and fairness in the rules and ensure a level playing field in the competition." Believe me, as much as you may dislike that whole "rules stability" stance, you would HATE it if we changed rules that made your currently-legal gun no longer legal... or no longer competitive.

USPSA has not "pick and choose'd" to make the Vanek trigger mod illegal. It (years ago) drew a line, in the definition of the equipment rules, about what is legal and what is not.

-- no external mods

-- trigger and action work for reliability

Nowhere in the rules did it grant an exception that said "hey, if you can modify the function of the factory parts and add aftermarket parts to get a seriously light trigger, go for it!"

What has happened here is that someone... hmmm, how to phrase this... pushed the edge of the envelope? And found that they were no longer *in* the envelope.

That's not the rule's fault. Nor is it the fault of the NROI. Those both merely have the responsibility to identify where the line is drawn between "allowed" and "not allowed", and they have done so.

Since I'm already dead in the crosshairs, here, I'll ask the question. Does anyone who has competed in the Production division *not* know that the intended goal of the division and its equipment constraints was to promote competition with *production* guns (e.g., guns "as they were produced by the factory")? Does anyone *not* believe that $300 trigger mods on $400 guns is at odds with that vision?

Here's a litmus test. Put a Vanek trigger in your Glock, and then send it to the Glock factory to have a Glock armorer adjust it. Think they'd do it? My guess is they'd say "nope... that's not a production trigger, somebody modified it, we won't touch it."

My belief is quite simple - if the gun is no longer in factory configuration - explicitly-allowed modifications such as sights notwithstanding - it is no longer a Production gun.

I think the rules support that belief.... and nothing about the rules has been "pick and choose'd" recently to change that.

Bruce

Edited February 9, 2006 by bgary

[boo radley]

Bruce -- I like the intent, but from what I understand nothing prevents any *internal* super-light trigger work, right? IOW, as long as there's nothing externally visible, it's *legal*, "right" or "wrong" not withstanding....

Why not in that case, as Vlad suggests, have a minimum pull weight? 3.5lbs seems reasonable, as the Glocks with the 3.5lb still pull more than that.

[Barrettone]

Well I seem to recall a issue about 9 major in limited and some of the reasoning was it would make a whole bunch of guns useless, seems they just did the same damn thing. There seems to be to much picking and choosing what is acceptable.

OK, that's one way to think about it.

Another way to think about it is: "USPSA, as the rules body in the US, has an obligation to its members to draw a clear line between 'what is allowed' and 'what is not allowed', in order to maintain stability and fairness in the rules and ensure a level playing field in the competition." Believe me, as much as you may dislike that whole "rules stability" stance, you would HATE it if we changed rules that made your currently-legal gun no longer legal... or no longer competitive.

USPSA has not "pick and choose'd" to make the Vanek trigger mod illegal. It (years ago) drew a line, in the definition of the equipment rules, about what is legal and what is not.

-- no external mods

-- trigger and action work for reliability

Nowhere in the rules did it grant an exception that said "hey, if you can modify the function of the factory parts and add aftermarket parts to get a seriously light trigger, go for it!"

What has happened here is that someone... hmmm, how to phrase this... pushed the edge of the envelope? And found that they were no longer *in* the envelope.

That's not the rule's fault. Nor is it the fault of the NROI. Those both merely have the responsibility to identify where the line is drawn between "allowed" and "not allowed", and they have done so.

Since I'm already dead in the crosshairs, here, I'll ask the question. Does anyone who has competed in the Production division *not* know that the intended goal of the division and its equipment constraints was to promote competition with *production* guns (e.g., guns "as they were produced by the factory")? Does anyone *not* believe that $300 trigger mods on $400 guns is at odds with that vision?

Here's a litmus test. Put a Vanek trigger in your Glock, and then send it to the Glock factory to have a Glock armorer adjust it. Think they'd do it? My guess is they'd say "nope... that's not a production trigger, somebody modified it, we won't touch it."

My belief is quite simple - if the gun is no longer in factory configuration - explicitly-allowed modifications such as sights notwithstanding - it is no longer a Production gun.

I think the rules support that belief.... and nothing about the rules has been "pick and choose'd" recently to change that.

Bruce

Here,Here Bruce!!!

I agree COMPLETELY. People decided to dance with the devil, and they got burned...PLAIN AND SIMPLE. If you want to do $300 trigger mods, then get yer a$$ in limited division and have at 'er!!! Production was not EVER intended for such nonsense. There will always be "gamers" living on the edge in our sport, but production is the one "sanctuary" from the arms race that plagued USPSA until production division was unveiled. Since then, countless THOUSANDS have entered or re-entered the sport to play our game on a reasonably "level" playing field.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, since I don't really shoot production, so don't tell me I'm being a sanctimonious SOB for stating the obvious...PRODUCTION MEANS PRODUCTION. Don't try comparing grip tape and sights to a $300 trigger mod...it makes you sound ridiculous. There's several OTHER divisions for people like this, and production isn't one of them. Just because it took 3 years to come to light that the trigger mod consisted of drilling additional holes and repositioning EXTERNAL equipment (ie...the trigger is in a DIFFERENT position dammit...I can see that EXTERNALLY), don't come crying to momma because you finally got busted. Look at it as you got away with something for a long time, and now the party is over, and you'll just have to play by the same rules as everybody else in production who didn't have $300 to "game" the division. Invest the money in practice next time, and win the old fashioned way. Lesson learned.

Jeff

Edited February 9, 2006 by Barrettone

[sturmruger]

I spent close to $1000 for my production ready XD which is now a really great gun to compete with.

There are plenty of people out there that still beat me with stock GLock 17. Does spending that kind of cash on a good production gun mean that I am not honoring the "spirit of the division"?? No I don't think so, I love production and plan to shoot it until I make A some day. If I am within the rules as they are laid out right now I think I should be fine. Changing a rule so that some light triggers are ok but other are not seems kind of lame to me. I plan to purchase a G34 some day for production and it will go to Charlie Vanek for the trigger work. He does great work. Watch our Rich they might go after the XD trigger next!

[SRT Driver]

Here's a litmus test. Put a Vanek trigger in your Glock, and then send it to the Glock factory to have a Glock armorer adjust it. Think they'd do it? My guess is they'd say "nope... that's not a production trigger, somebody modified it, we won't touch it."

Bruce,

Really... that doesn't say much for the Glock Armorers that knew something was done to mine but I had to point out what was different besides the obvious.

The rules are clear and it is an external mod but if you are not looking for it's hard to spot.

It is far from overt and blatent.

[driver8M3]

Another way to think about it is: "USPSA, as the rules body in the US, has an obligation to its members to draw a clear line between 'what is allowed' and 'what is not allowed', in order to maintain stability and fairness in the rules and ensure a level playing field in the competition." Believe me, as much as you may dislike that whole "rules stability" stance, you would HATE it if we changed rules that made your currently-legal gun no longer legal... or no longer competitive.

youre making my point for me! they just said that after 3 year of being legal, my gun is now illegal.

Nowhere in the rules did it grant an exception that said "hey, if you can modify the function of the factory parts and add aftermarket parts to get a seriously light trigger, go for it!"

actually, D9 21.4 does in fact say exactly that, though in fewer words. show me where "trigger work" has a limitation placed on it in that rule? it simply says trigger work is allowed. if you, or NROI, wants to place a limitation on how much trigger work can be done, it needs to be spelled out in the rules, not invented in an interpretation.

Since I'm already dead in the crosshairs, here, I'll ask the question. Does anyone who has competed in the Production division *not* know that the intended goal of the division and its equipment constraints was to promote competition with *production* guns (e.g., guns "as they were produced by the factory")? Does anyone *not* believe that $300 trigger mods on $400 guns is at odds with that vision?

aftermarket barrels are allowed. how much are they?

Here's a litmus test. Put a Vanek trigger in your Glock, and then send it to the Glock factory to have a Glock armorer adjust it. Think they'd do it? My guess is they'd say "nope... that's not a production trigger, somebody modified it, we won't touch it."

i bet they'd say the same thing about an aftermarket barrel.

My belief is quite simple - if the gun is no longer in factory configuration - explicitly-allowed modifications such as sights notwithstanding - it is no longer a Production gun.

i respect your belief, however, the production division is governed by written rules. and one of those rules specifically says that "trigger work" is allowed. now, can you tell me what part of my glock charlie modified that is causing all of this commotion? why, it so happens that part is called the trigger. somebody, anybody, please tell me how modifying a part that is called the trigger somehow is not allowed, even though there is a rule that specifically allows trigger work.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Well I seem to recall a issue about 9 major in limited and some of the reasoning was it would make a whole bunch of guns useless, seems they just did the same damn thing. There seems to be to much picking and choosing what is acceptable.

OK, that's one way to think about it.

Another way to think about it is: "USPSA, as the rules body in the US, has an obligation to its members to draw a clear line between 'what is allowed' and 'what is not allowed', in order to maintain stability and fairness in the rules and ensure a level playing field in the competition." Believe me, as much as you may dislike that whole "rules stability" stance, you would HATE it if we changed rules that made your currently-legal gun no longer legal... or no longer competitive.

USPSA has not "pick and choose'd" to make the Vanek trigger mod illegal. It (years ago) drew a line, in the definition of the equipment rules, about what is legal and what is not.

-- no external mods

-- trigger and action work for reliability

Nowhere in the rules did it grant an exception that said "hey, if you can modify the function of the factory parts and add aftermarket parts to get a seriously light trigger, go for it!"

What has happened here is that someone... hmmm, how to phrase this... pushed the edge of the envelope? And found that they were no longer *in* the envelope.

That's not the rule's fault. Nor is it the fault of the NROI. Those both merely have the responsibility to identify where the line is drawn between "allowed" and "not allowed", and they have done so.

Since I'm already dead in the crosshairs, here, I'll ask the question. Does anyone who has competed in the Production division *not* know that the intended goal of the division and its equipment constraints was to promote competition with *production* guns (e.g., guns "as they were produced by the factory")? Does anyone *not* believe that $300 trigger mods on $400 guns is at odds with that vision?

Here's a litmus test. Put a Vanek trigger in your Glock, and then send it to the Glock factory to have a Glock armorer adjust it. Think they'd do it? My guess is they'd say "nope... that's not a production trigger, somebody modified it, we won't touch it."

My belief is quite simple - if the gun is no longer in factory configuration - explicitly-allowed modifications such as sights notwithstanding - it is no longer a Production gun.

I think the rules support that belief.... and nothing about the rules has been "pick and choose'd" recently to change that.

Bruce

Here,Here Bruce!!!

I agree COMPLETELY. People decided to dance with the devil, and they got burned...PLAIN AND SIMPLE. If you want to do $300 trigger mods, then get yer a$$ in limited division and have at 'er!!! Production was not EVER intended for such nonsense. There will always be "gamers" living on the edge in our sport, but production is the one "sanctuary" from the arms race that plagued USPSA until production division was unveiled. Since then, countless THOUSANDS have entered or re-entered the sport to play our game on a reasonably "level" playing field.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, since I don't really shoot production, so don't tell me I'm being a sanctimonious SOB for stating the obvious...PRODUCTION MEANS PRODUCTION. Don't try comparing grip tape and sights to a $300 trigger mod...it makes you sound ridiculous. There's several OTHER divisions for people like this, and production isn't one of them. Just because it took 3 years to come to light that the trigger mod consisted of drilling additional holes and repositioning EXTERNAL equipment (ie...the trigger is in a DIFFERENT position dammit...I can see that EXTERNALLY), don't come crying to momma because you finally got busted. Look at it as you got away with something for a long time, and now the party is over, and you'll just have to play by the same rules as everybody else in production who didn't have $300 to "game" the division. Invest the money in practice next time, and win the old fashioned way. Lesson learned.

Jeff

You are ill informed.

The trigger isn't in a different position, you can't see that, so you're wrong! There is an extra hole drilled in the trigger.

If you want to say no mods to the trigger fine, I can live with that. That means nothing done to any gun. I paid my 300 because I didn't know how to do my own work. Others talk of doing almost the exact same things themselves. 2lb trigers for less money.

The price of the trigger job is not important, and yes MACHINING the slide to fit sights may be allowed but it is most certainly the same thing.

I'm going to install my stock trigger and trigger bar in my gun, leave everything else the same and I'm going to continue to beat all the shooters I beat before.

Edited February 9, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[XRe]

Why not in that case, as Vlad suggests, have a minimum pull weight? 3.5lbs seems reasonable, as the Glocks with the 3.5lb still pull more than that.

Or, better yet, the IPSC mandated 5lb pull... there's already a rule supporting it and providing precedent... I still like our 10 round max rule, though, as it prevents the capacity race we see in IPSC Production, now....

BTW - nice response, Bruce Even if you did just dig the hole deeper

Edited February 9, 2006 by XRe

[Caspian_45]

Bruce.

Glock does not have and probably never will have a "Custom Shop". That being said, most of the other manufactures DO have a "Custom Shop" of some kind. There are some "Factory" supported competitors that use so called factory guns. So I ask, I want a gun just like Robbies. How much is it going to cost me? Here is the answer, you can't buy one like Robbies. His are special.

Custom shop guns should never have been allowed in Production division. But since they are, the equipment race is on.

You state "Nowhere in the rules did it grant an exception that said "hey, if you can modify the function of the factory parts and add aftermarket parts to get a seriously light trigger, go for it!"

I say, nowhere in the rules says we can't.

You also state:

-- no external mods

-- trigger and action work for reliability

I can see the end of a guide rod, so if it has been change to an aftermarket guide rod is it legal? Part of the guide rod is external, right? That would make it illegal according to the rules.

I just cannot see the reasoning behind the ruling against Vanek triggers. The rules state that trigger work is permitted. Nowhere did it say you couldn't relocate the pin in the trigger.

I really need to have the low down on this, because I can't see the reason behind this ruling.

[eerw]

Just to throw this in here..

Charlie's trigger is lstill egal on Open Glocks, Limited Glocks and Limited 10 Glocks...

It is a great trigger and it is too bad people have investments made and the NROI interpretation wasn't made sooner. When I first got my Vanek trigger, one of the questions I asked was about the overtravel screw...Charlie said he did not know if it would be interpreted as legal..and I guess no one asked the question..

so now..someone asked the question...and we got the answer...

the rule isn't new...its the interpretation that is new..

Courts do it everyday..add their interpretations to the laws..

yes..I still don't understand how you mill a slide to fit sights and still be production legal...

[driver8M3]

Barrettone: man, i'm not sure that one little winky you included is enough to cover the nastiness of your post. i've used this trigger for 2 years now...lots of practice, lots of matches. i'm not gaming anything. the rules allowed it (and in my mind still do, amidon's ruling aside). trigger work...is allowed

and to set the record straight, charlie's trigger cost me $185 (the rest is shipping). no more than an aftermarket barrel, no more than having bomar sights installed (in fact, probably less) and only about $60 more than a set of dawson sights.

[SRT Driver]

Holy Crap!!!

The Vanek trigger is IDPA legal and not Production legal!!!!!

The sky is falling!!!