Shooter Grrl Posted September 24, 2001 Share Posted September 24, 2001 Well geez, what am I supposed to say? I didn't write the rulebook... tell somebody that can fix it :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Does everybody have a rule book? I think the rules are also listed on the USPSA web site. www.uspsa.org Here is what mine says: APPENDIX E US DIVISIONS OPEN Major power factor -- 165 minimum Minor power factor -- 125 minimum Minimum bullet weight -- 112 grain for MAJOR pf minimum cartridge 9x19mm .40 min for major factor -- NO LIMITED major -- 165 minor -- 125 minimum bullet weight -- NO .40 min. for major pf -- YES -------------------- Bottom line. In the US you need a 40 to shoot major in Limited (--NO-- comps or red dots) class. Doug, I am looking up a definative answer about 9x19 making major in Open. Email me if you have more questions. flexmoney@aol.com (Edited by Flexmoney at 11:15 am on Sep. 25, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Does everybody have a rule book? I think the rules are also listed on the USPSA web site. www.uspsa.org Here is what mine says: APPENDIX E US DIVISIONS OPEN Major power factor -- 165 minimum Minor power factor -- 125 minimum Minimum bullet weight -- 112 grain for MAJOR pf minimum cartridge 9x19mm .40 min for major factor -- NO LIMITED major -- 165 minor -- 125 minimum bullet weight -- NO .40 min. for major pf -- YES -------------------- Bottom line. In the US you need a 40 to shoot major in Limited (--NO-- comps or red dots) class. Doug, I am looking up a definative answer about 9x19 making major in Open. Email me if you have more questions. flexmoney@aol.com (Edited by Flexmoney at 11:15 am on Sep. 25, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Kath, I know you did not write the rule book, however, you did say it was in some rule book: "But it's not an IPSC rule, and that's an IPSC rulebook, capiche :-) " I did not mean to attack you. I just wanted to make sure we were both looking at the same set of rules. I have to agree with Flexmoney. My rule book says 9x19 is legal. The only problem I have is if there are rules that are not in the book and I realize that is not your fault either......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Kath, I know you did not write the rule book, however, you did say it was in some rule book: "But it's not an IPSC rule, and that's an IPSC rulebook, capiche :-) " I did not mean to attack you. I just wanted to make sure we were both looking at the same set of rules. I have to agree with Flexmoney. My rule book says 9x19 is legal. The only problem I have is if there are rules that are not in the book and I realize that is not your fault either......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Okay you guys, I'll send Amidon an email so you hear it officially - but I'm telling you, you MAY NOT load 9x19 to major power factor! 9X19 is the minimum allowed in competition, but it's scored minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Okay you guys, I'll send Amidon an email so you hear it officially - but I'm telling you, you MAY NOT load 9x19 to major power factor! 9X19 is the minimum allowed in competition, but it's scored minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Shooter Grrl, I sent him an email yesterday about this very topic. And I read the "minutes" from one of the meetings. (April 11, 2001 ??) I will post his "call" when I receive it. It is very odd that something that has been around for over 10 years is not in the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Shooter Grrl, I sent him an email yesterday about this very topic. And I read the "minutes" from one of the meetings. (April 11, 2001 ??) I will post his "call" when I receive it. It is very odd that something that has been around for over 10 years is not in the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 The problem is twofold, Rules and Physics. The Rules: You can't shoot a 9x19 and declare Major in USPSA or IPSC. Even with the 165PF. You have to shoot it Minor regardless of which Division you're in. The Physics: You can't get a 9x19 up to Major (even the new 165PF) without going waaaay past the SAAMI specs. Let's assume that the SAAMI specs are deliberately soft to save wear and tear on ancient 9mm's. The 9x21 loading data makes Major, but the pressures are in the region of 9mm+P++. Think about it, you're taking loading data/pressure curves for a 38 Super which are already at 36K or more, and then decreasing the case capacity by .1" or so. Even with the slowest, densest powder you can get into a 9x21, you're probably running around 50K minimum. Even with a longer barrel. The primer, case and mechanism weren't designed for it. In a few more iterations of powder development, the makers may well come up with powders that deliver Major velocities in the 9mm case within the SAAMI 35K limit. Until then, this route is closed to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 The problem is twofold, Rules and Physics. The Rules: You can't shoot a 9x19 and declare Major in USPSA or IPSC. Even with the 165PF. You have to shoot it Minor regardless of which Division you're in. The Physics: You can't get a 9x19 up to Major (even the new 165PF) without going waaaay past the SAAMI specs. Let's assume that the SAAMI specs are deliberately soft to save wear and tear on ancient 9mm's. The 9x21 loading data makes Major, but the pressures are in the region of 9mm+P++. Think about it, you're taking loading data/pressure curves for a 38 Super which are already at 36K or more, and then decreasing the case capacity by .1" or so. Even with the slowest, densest powder you can get into a 9x21, you're probably running around 50K minimum. Even with a longer barrel. The primer, case and mechanism weren't designed for it. In a few more iterations of powder development, the makers may well come up with powders that deliver Major velocities in the 9mm case within the SAAMI 35K limit. Until then, this route is closed to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 I emailed Michael Voigt - and yes, I got a response rather quickly! He said "1990 BOD decision is in effect at this point." You can view the resolution in the July 1990 minutes on the USPSA Members webpage. If someone wants to see it that's not a USPSA member, I'll copy it for you. I did ask him if we could get this resolution in a more prominent place as you guys all had good points about it not being in the rulebook. I've also asked BE if we could move this topic to the new USPSA rules forum to get it kick started :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 I emailed Michael Voigt - and yes, I got a response rather quickly! He said "1990 BOD decision is in effect at this point." You can view the resolution in the July 1990 minutes on the USPSA Members webpage. If someone wants to see it that's not a USPSA member, I'll copy it for you. I did ask him if we could get this resolution in a more prominent place as you guys all had good points about it not being in the rulebook. I've also asked BE if we could move this topic to the new USPSA rules forum to get it kick started :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 For what it worth-- If you want to shoot an Open Glock... 9x21 is legal and there are three loads listed in my Sierra manual that will do the job. (168.75 pf) The OAL is 1.165 which should work fine in a small framed Glock. I would NOT go reaming out a loose Glock chamber to get the headspace for 9x21. Get an aftermarket barrel from someone who knows what they (and you) are doing. KKM and Barsto come to mind. I have talked with both. They can and do make the barrels (and comps). For a large framed Glock (G20) you can go with something along the lines of 9x23. You can load longer in the large framed Glock. The smaller framed guns won't feed longer bullets through the mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 For what it worth-- If you want to shoot an Open Glock... 9x21 is legal and there are three loads listed in my Sierra manual that will do the job. (168.75 pf) The OAL is 1.165 which should work fine in a small framed Glock. I would NOT go reaming out a loose Glock chamber to get the headspace for 9x21. Get an aftermarket barrel from someone who knows what they (and you) are doing. KKM and Barsto come to mind. I have talked with both. They can and do make the barrels (and comps). For a large framed Glock (G20) you can go with something along the lines of 9x23. You can load longer in the large framed Glock. The smaller framed guns won't feed longer bullets through the mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Although we have started a thread about thois in another topic i thought I should post what I learned on this thread too. ---------------- This is the word from John A. Kyle, There is a resolution by the BOD back in June of 1990 stating that 9 major is not allowed. This is still in effect and will not change until someone is willing to put into writing that the pressures of this load are safe within SAMMI specs. Work is being done on this to clear the issue up, but at this time, it is not allowed. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Although we have started a thread about thois in another topic i thought I should post what I learned on this thread too. ---------------- This is the word from John A. Kyle, There is a resolution by the BOD back in June of 1990 stating that 9 major is not allowed. This is still in effect and will not change until someone is willing to put into writing that the pressures of this load are safe within SAMMI specs. Work is being done on this to clear the issue up, but at this time, it is not allowed. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 #Moderation Mode Moved here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 #Moderation Mode Moved here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 Patrick, where does it say that you can not use 9x19 major in open division in IPSC? As far as I know, only USPSA prohibit 9x19 major in open division. Even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 "For a large framed Glock (G20) you can go with something along the lines of 9x23." Um, and how are you supposed to make that .40 caliber breech face work with your 9x23mm ammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 Duane, John Ricco's shop (Classic Pistol, http://www.classicpistol.com) in PA offers Glock 20 and 29 conversions to 9x23. Don't know how they do it, or how reliably it works, but if I remember correctly, wasn't Ricco the guy who designed the 9x23? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 9, 2001 Share Posted December 9, 2001 DT, The same way we make anything else work. Seems to be plenty of info on the topic at PistolSmith.com, likely some at GlockTalk too. Send me the money for the barrel and comp. I'll make it work. You can write it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 9, 2001 Share Posted December 9, 2001 DT, Believe it or not, a .40 Glock will feed and fire 9mm ammo. I had an acquaintance who did this (accidentally). Fortunately, the gun didn't blow up. If it works on accident, it should work intentionally. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 10, 2001 Share Posted December 10, 2001 Even, Sorry, mental muddle. I sometimes don't sort out USPSA and IPSC when thinking or writing, and I should be more careful. USPSA only, the rest of the world thinks differently. But that ain't all bad, as the Belgians think chocolate at breakfast is just fine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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