benos Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I got this in an emai from Greg Schroeder... ... Question. Slide lightening? Is it based on solid principles of physics,could it really make a noticeable change in the recoil of the gun? Absolutely. "Recoil" is a physical principle. You have "such and such" force pushing against "such and such" resistance. Now remove some weight from the slide without changing anything else (the load, or adding weight somewhere else), and the gun (resistance) will "recoil" in the opposite direction the bullet is traveling more quickly. From that point on, it gets quite a bit more complicated. "Recoil," as an objective measurement, is a fairly useless term to the shooter. What the shooter cares about is "felt recoil." Or how the gun "handles." Changing the handling or felt recoil can be accomplished by changing most any aspect of the gun or load. Change the bullet weight, power type (amount, faster or slower burning, different pressure curve), recoil and hammer spring weight, add or remove weight to any part of the frame or slide, and you'll change how the pistol feels during its recoil cycle. Other than changing the load, adding or removing weight to the slide has the greatest potential to change the felt recoil of a pistol because 100% of the slide's weight is above the pivot point of the pistol's recoil arc. (Since you're gripping the pistol, as opposed to it just floating in space, the "pivot point" is where your thumb and the base of your trigger finger meet the grip safety.) The is further complicated by the fact that the slide "opens" when the gun fires - leaving a part of the gun's weight (resistance) in your hand while the other part (the slide) continues rearward, past the pivot point, against spring pressure until it reaches the end of its travel - then it "re-engages" itself to the frame and tries to pull the frame backward along with it, until the entire motion is exhausted. The rearward speed of the slide's movement - combined with its weight - has the greatest influence on felt recoil. Add all that to the individual shooter's gripping strength and physical position of his grip on the pistol itself, and you can see that's there no objectivity whatsoever when shooters talk about "recoil." be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I got this in an emai from Greg Schroeder... ... Question. Slide lightening? Is it based on solid principles of physics,could it really make a noticeable change in the recoil of the gun? Absolutely. "Recoil" is a physical principle. You have "such and such" force pushing against "such and such" resistance. Now remove some weight from the slide without changing anything else (the load, or adding weight somewhere else), and the gun (resistance) will "recoil" in the opposite direction the bullet is traveling more quickly. From that point on, it gets quite a bit more complicated. "Recoil," as an objective measurement, is a fairly useless term to the shooter. What the shooter cares about is "felt recoil." Or how the gun "handles." Changing the handling or felt recoil can be accomplished by changing most any aspect of the gun or load. Change the bullet weight, power type (amount, faster or slower burning, different pressure curve), recoil and hammer spring weight, add or remove weight to any part of the frame or slide, and you'll change how the pistol feels during its recoil cycle. Other than changing the load, adding or removing weight to the slide has the greatest potential to change the felt recoil of a pistol because 100% of the slide's weight is above the pivot point of the pistol's recoil arc. (Since you're gripping the pistol, as opposed to it just floating in space, the "pivot point" is where your thumb and the base of your trigger finger meet the grip safety.) The is further complicated by the fact that the slide "opens" when the gun fires - leaving a part of the gun's weight (resistance) in your hand while the other part (the slide) continues rearward, past the pivot point, against spring pressure until it reaches the end of its travel - then it "re-engages" itself to the frame and tries to pull the frame backward along with it, until the entire motion is exhausted. The rearward speed of the slide's movement - combined with its weight - has the greatest influence on felt recoil. Add all that to the individual shooter's gripping strength and physical position of his grip on the pistol itself, and you can see that's there no objectivity whatsoever when shooters talk about "recoil." be Great answer As long as we don't see those Pelican Guns with those slide lightning cuts. those Pelican guns are ugly. Brian we need a nickname for you. I know your close buddy Rob is called "The Great One" maybe we ought to call you "The Enlighten One" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 What I was told is: If it moves, make it light. If it sits still, make it heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Just put a set of light alloy wheels on your car and see how much better the car does on a bumpy road with less unsprung weight... Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Well, there's a balance to slide weight just like anything else. In general, if all other variables are the same, lightening the slide will initially result in less perceived recoil, and the recoil impulse will seem quicker and perhaps a taste flatter. The lighter slide has less inertia, and therefore picks up more energy - but in a sprung system like this, (my understanding is) you tend to perceive the inertia of the slide and the resistance of the associated springs as recoil. That is, things that allow energy to be transmitted from the slide/barrel to the frame and then to you. The tipping point comes in a couple of different ways. At some point, the slide becomes so light that it picks up a *lot* of energy, and you then start to feel the slide impact the frame (well, the guide rod head, really) at the end of it's travel. This shows up as a quick, hard bump in the sights/dot and an impact that feels like it's straight into your palm. Some people like this to some extent. The slide may end up with too little inertia to keep the slide locked up while chamber pressure is too high - and you end up having to use a much heavier recoil spring to force the slide to stay closed long enough. This results in more perceived recoil due to the higher resistance of the recoil spring. You may also reach a point where the slide has too little forward momentum to strip the next round off the top of the magazine, again requiring you to go to a heavier recoil spring - in this case, because you need more stored energy to get the slide closed. Somewhere in there, there's a happy medium, and as Brian says, it depends a lot on how you want the gun to feel. In general, if it moves, you'd rather it be a little bit lighter - but only to a point... Oh, yeah - an overly lighted slide might become weak, structurally, and fail (crack) prematurely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 some one once mentioned arround 12 ounces for a limited/standard set up . Is this the weight of the slide excluding sights , extractor, firing pin and fp stop plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 I was gonna say the unsprung weight thing but Merlin beat me to it. (I used to work for a guy that raced formula cars.) But I am gonna move this to the right forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 (edited) There's also a "time" component. If you look at the shock graph from a "G" meter on an auto loader, there is an initial bump (from discharge) and a ramping upward line (recoil spring compressing) followed by the last bump (slide hits frame). The point is, the slide converts the recoil energy into motion (and spring energy in te recoil spring). If that process is spread out over a longer time, the peak energy (thus the felt recoil) will be less than if it is concentrated in a narrower window. A lighter mass slide will accelerate faster, and reach the end sooner so it does tend to make the event shorter in duration. Edited February 3, 2006 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 ditto, i was a non believer but after today I will send out my slide to be lightened. I tried my brother's limited gun with a tri topped slide and the difference was significant. The lightened slide was subjectively softer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 How does all this relate to a open gun with a Ti comp versus a steel comp versus a standard slide versus a lightened slide? I still for some reason don't understand why a heavy comp will slow down the slide versus the light comp that won't. (or so i've been told) slide and barrel/comp are two seperate entity's. Enlighten me Benos. DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 (edited) I'm still learning so I could be wrong but how I understand it the comp adds weight to the barrel, the addtional weight to move the barrel/comp affects the slide. The additional weight affects the barrel lock up and slide movement. I'll leave it to the experts to explain it better. Flyin40 Edited February 6, 2006 by Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I know that my Brazos is SIGNIFICANTLY flatter in terms of muzzle flip during recoil than my Para is with the same ammo. I didn't think it would be as big of a differance when I ordered the Brazos as it turned out to be. Crude guesstimates would be along the lines of 30 - 40% lower. There are other factors that come in to play here as well so this isn't a scientific analysis by any means. A comp isn't cycling that far (although it is moving a bit) so not sure how much differance there is there. If the comp is doing it's job right it shouldn't matter that much...IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 When I asked Benny Hill about the Fat Free he radically lightened for me, he said its not the flip or muzzle lift that reduces it is the return or drop that diminishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 How does all this relate to a open gun with a Ti comp versus a steel comp versus a standard slide versus a lightened slide? I still for some reason don't understand why a heavy comp will slow down the slide versus the light comp that won't. (or so i've been told) slide and barrel/comp are two seperate entity's. Enlighten me Benos.DaG Add more weight (steel vs.Ti comp) to the barrel or slide, and the gun will open slower and "feel" softer. Add 1 oz. to the compensator and the pistol will "feel" different, in a "certain" way. And 1 oz. to the slide (and not to the comp) and the pistol will feel different than it would in the previous example. This is because the barrel/comp assembly is "part of the slide" - at the moment of ignition, and for a few milliseconds after that. The same principle is why a bushing barreled Limited Gun "kicks harder" than a bull barreled Limited Gun. The combined weight of the barrel and slide of the bull barreled version is more than it is for the bushing barreled version. So the bull barreled pistol opens (pushes to the rear) slower initially. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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