Glock factory barrel with lead

[Jesse Tischauser]

It doesn't seem like anyone can agree on what is really and truely OK or not. The fact of the matter is that if you shoot a bunch of lead through a stock glock barrel without ever cleaning it eventually it will be damaged, destroyed or worse. So if you want to be completely safe don't ever shoot lead bullets. If you like to live on the edge shoot lead BUT clean the barrel as often as possible.

I think what I will do first is buy another factory Glock barrel. Then I will take the first barrel and shoot as many rounds of hard cast bullets through it as I can until the barrel goes bad. Then I will switch over to the 2nd barrel and clean it about 500 rounds before the 1st barrel went to crap. I think those 8 years of Engineering school are starting to pay dividends finally.

[earlbob]

It doesn't seem like anyone can agree on what is really and truely OK or not.

I think we might agree to agree that blowing up your gun is stupid. Umm on second thought maybe one would not agree just to be disagreeable and play the devils advocate. Guess its a bit like being an astronaut. You know that what goes up might blow up and not everything that does go up comes down in one piece but its the hazards of the trade and the thrill is worth it to some! (strap me in one anytime) However all kidding aside my own decision is to not shoot lead thru the Glock-o-la stock barrel and its basically the same reason why I don't ride motor-sickles on the street. Earl likes all his body parts right where they are right now.

eb

[.45er]

I went with an aftermarket barrel more for the extra chamber support and as an added benefit can shoot lead without any worries.

[Duane Thomas]

I think the reason "no one can agree on this" is that people are coming from three different levels of experience in the matter.

(1) They "know" that firing lead through a stock Glock barrel is dangerous. They've never actually done it themselves, mind you - because who would ever do something so dangerous - and sternly warn you away from the practice. "Keeping all my fingers is important to me," and so forth.

(2) They've done it but clean the barrel religiously after every shooting session - because why take chances?

(3) They've fired thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rounds of hard cast lead through standard Glock barrels without cleaning without a single problem.

Which group do you think has the greater knowledge and experience base to have a valid opinion on the topic?

[JimmyZip]

Bart, are you saying that the average lead bullets don't obturate to contact the rifling? Is that why nearly all lead bullets, coated or not, are oversized?

[usmc1974]

I always buy my new Glocks a Stormlake barrel. For a measley 100 bucks why worry about it. Is not SAFETY first rule 1?

[earlbob]

I think the reason "no one can agree on this" is that people are coming from three different levels of experience in the matter.

(1) They "know" that firing lead through a stock Glock barrel is dangerous. They've never actually done it themselves, mind you - because who would ever do something so dangerous - and sternly warn you away from the practice. "Keeping all my fingers is important to me," and so forth.

(2) They've done it but clean the barrel religiously after every shooting session - because why take chances?

(3) They've fired thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rounds of hard cast lead through standard Glock barrels without cleaning without a single problem.

Which group do you think has the greater knowledge and experience base to have a valid opinion on the topic?

I myself do not 'know' that firing a lead bullet through a Glock is dangerous. I based my opinion on what seems to be a well written and scientifically based collection of thoughts found in the book 'The Glock in Competition" 2nd Edition by Robin Taylor combined with what I have read here. Most motorcycle riders still have all their body parts intact although many of them have had more then one good scare. However in the example of motorcycle ridership I chose to use, one which seems appropriate as it is an activity with danger, there exists a subcategory of people who are either deceased, missing body parts or suffering the after effects of an accident while riding. You might ask those in group one if riding is dangerous and find more then a few who would say no however in group 2 you would not find one. I think experience can be deceptive if one relies on it separate from other knowledge that is available and relevant.

In conclusion I think all 3 groups you have listed have information that is relevant to making an informed decision however safety should be of primary import as the life endangered is not necessarily just your own! What is an acceptable risk? 1 gun blowing up for every million rounds? hundred thousand? other....who knows. They do seem to blow up though and that cannot be denied. The why is debatable. Consensus seems to point its finger at lead being suspect.

shalom, earl

[Woody Allen]

In conclusion I think all 3 groups you have listed have information that is relevant to making an informed decision however safety should be of primary import as the life endangered is not necessarily just your own! What is an acceptable risk? 1 gun blowing up for every million rounds? hundred thousand? other....who knows. They do seem to blow up though and that cannot be denied. The why is debatable. Consensus seems to point its finger at lead being suspect.

shalom, earl

2008 and 2009 National Production winner. Lead through a Glock barrel.

http://www.watchtv.net/~vogelshootist/Weapons.htm

Edited May 10, 2010 by Woody Allen

[Lumpy McSoo]

So what brand of bullets does Robert Vogel shoot? I assume from the above post that they are lead...although it is as if I was seeing double and triple...

[.45er]

So what brand of bullets does Robert Vogel shoot? I assume from the above post that they are lead...although it is as if I was seeing double and triple...

Precision Bullets is the brand. They are a coated lead bullet...... here is what they say about them on the website

Precision Bullets are swaged with certified 6/2 lead alloy. We then apply our unique dry-lube formula. This process completely encases the precision lead core.

What does this mean for you? Safe for indoor ranges. No leading in the barrel. Fire more rounds downrange between cleanings. Load twice as long and twice as much before cleaning your dies. Less smoke since no messy wax lubricants are used.

Precision Bullets cost only a few dollars more than the cheapest cast lead bullets, but they give you jacketed bullet ballistics.

They are clean, safe and accurate.

You can fire our bullets at over 2000 feet per second with no leading and no copper fouling and no messy lubricants.

The tough coat protects the bullet from damage and is a natural lubricant. It keeps the bullet at tight factory dimensions and goes through the bore intact.

That means no lead on your hands, no lead dust and no toxic fumes.

Even long sessions at the loading bench or when shooting on indoor ranges. It means clean hands, clean guns, clean reloading dies - and clean air.

And you get a bullet which is highly uniform in weight and dimension.

[Duane Thomas]

In conclusion I think all 3 groups you have listed have information that is relevant to making an informed decision

So, let me see if I follow the logic. The people who have never done something because they're afraid to try it, and therefore don't really have any firsthand experience at all, have information relevant to making an informed decision - just like the people who have actually been doing that thing successfully for years, in the process firing tens of thousands of rounds without a single problem - those folks with the extensive, real-world, firsthand experience might have information at least equally as relevant as the people who have....no experience. Got it.

Personally I'll take my own firsthand experience over any anecdotal "evidence" on Earth. And what I know - repeat, KNOW, not "have read", not "someone else said" - is that I put about 15,000 rounds of Laser-Cast lead bullet handloads through my Glock 34, and I believe I cleaned the gun once during all that time. I was going to clean the barrel, but the first time I had the gun apart to check the bore after firing lead, expecting to see a gunked-up bore, it was so clean it looked polished. So I just put the gun back together with no cleaning. The next time I checked the bore, the same thing. The time after that, the same thing. And after that, I just quit worrying about it. BTW, when I finally did clean the gun, the bore was still that near-totally immaculate. I mean, patches through the bore came out barely smudged.

Does that mean I would recommend firing any old cheap lead bullets through a Glock barrel? No. But fortunately Laser-Cast bullets are harder than the hinges of Hell - which is why I chose them to start with. It's not as simple a matter as "Firing lead through Glock barrels is safe," or "Firing lead though Glock barrels is unsafe." It's a matter of "How well did you approach the process?"

[dirty whiteboy]

In conclusion I think all 3 groups you have listed have information that is relevant to making an informed decision

So, let me see if I follow the logic. The people who have never done something because they're afraid to try it, and therefore don't really have any firsthand experience at all, have information relevant to making an informed decision - just like the people who have actually been doing that thing successfully for years, in the process firing tens of thousands of rounds without a single problem - those folks with the extensive, real-world, firsthand experience might have information at least equally as relevant as the people who have....no experience. Got it.

Personally I'll take my own firsthand experience over any anecdotal "evidence" on Earth. And what I know - repeat, KNOW, not "have read", not "someone else said" - is that I put about 15,000 rounds of Laser-Cast lead bullet handloads through my Glock 34, and I believe I cleaned the gun once during all that time. I was going to clean the barrel, but the first time I had the gun apart to check the bore after firing lead, expecting to see a gunked-up bore, it was so clean it looked polished. So I just put the gun back together with no cleaning. The next time I checked the bore, the same thing. The time after that, the same thing. And after that, I just quit worrying about it. BTW, when I finally did clean the gun, the bore was still that near-totally immaculate. I mean, patches through the bore came out barely smudged.

Does that mean I would recommend firing any old cheap lead bullets through a Glock barrel? No. But fortunately Laser-Cast bullets are harder than the hinges of Hell - which is why I chose them to start with. It's not as simple a matter as "Firing lead through Glock barrels is safe," or "Firing lead though Glock barrels is unsafe." It's a matter of "How well did you approach the process?"

It appears your conclusion agrees with Will Sheuman's, that by only putting bullets through a barrel (no brushes), it will self clean.

[G-ManBart]

Bart, are you saying that the average lead bullets don't obturate to contact the rifling? Is that why nearly all lead bullets, coated or not, are oversized?

Sorta, but not exactly. They obturate, but mostly because they're oversized and being forced through the rifling...the extra material has to go somewhere. That's different from bumping up.

Soft lead bullets loaded with black powder truly bump up...that is, increase in diameter to fill whatever space is available even before they hit the rifling. This is related to why you can't have air space between the powder charge and the bullet with BP. It gives the gas column a running start, then it runs into the bullet which bumps up (rather than start moving immediately) and you blow up the gun.

Black powder cartridge rifle shooters do all sorts of stuff with bullet sizing and chamber cutting/lead length to take advantage of the way their bullets bump up. Folks that shoot a lot of BP revolver will tell you that if you get a gun with mismatched chamber mouth and forcing cone dimensions (in one direction anyway), BP and soft lead will often turn an inaccurate gun into one that's not bad, for the same reason...the bullet bumps up to fill the space and it engages the rifling properly. This is also probably why those two dimensions weren't very carefully controlled in guns like Colt SAAs (well that and it was still fairly new technology).

The sorts of bullets we use are too hard and smokeless doesn't give them the necessary hit, to really bump up. R,

[earlbob]

So, let me see if I follow the logic.

I don't think you did.

earl

[Duane Thomas]

Apparently not.

My logic is that I trust my extensive, firsthand experience over second- or third- or 50th-hand anecdotal information. I understand the attraction of theory and "Joe said even though he's never done it" because sometimes that's all we have to work with. I give more credence however to the experiences of people who've actually done something for years. Especially when I know it's true because I'm the person who did it. I approached the idea of lead in Glock barrels with caution. I biased things in my favor by choosing bullets of known extreme hardness. I did it a little. I checked for problems. I found no problems. I did it a little more. Checked for problems. Found none. Did it for years. Had no problems. Thus I feel confident in stating that, in my experience, firing an extremely hard lead bullet like Laser-Cast through a 9mm Glock's polygonally rifled stock barrel, without cleaning the bore for thousands of rounds, is safe. Because I did it for years on end. Anyone else is entitled to their opinion. It would be nice if their opinion was also based on years of real world, firsthand experience.

For me it's a sliding scale of how much weight I give the information I'm receiving. "Info from those who've done it for years" goes right at the top."Info from those who've never done it" goes at the bottom.

[JimmyZip]

Thanks Bart. Makes perfect sense.

Duane, I've had very similar results so far using 130BBIs and SOLO 1000. Very clean bore, almost looks polished. I still clean it, but there hasn't been much to clean. I'm still waiting for the time when I look down the barrel after breaking it down to clean it, and find leading, but it has yet to happen.

I guess we will see where this leads over time. Probably a long lasting barrel!

JZ

[old506]

For me it's a sliding scale of how much weight I give the information I'm receiving. "Info from those who've done it for years" goes right at the top."Info from those who've never done it" goes at the bottom.

Well said and something that needs to be said. Too many know-it-alls out there that don't have any experience, reading experts.

I have reloaded thousands of rounds, not tens of thousands, through a G21 over the last decade or more. I would even shoot factory ball after shooting lead because at the time it made sense to me to do it. My experience is prior to shooting competitively. I did, at times, have some leading but I cleaned it up. I have shot laser cast, Grier's hard cast (not sure if they are in business anymore) and a few others that I can't remember. I found that the laser cast leaded up some and I just had to clean it after every 1000 or so.

I jumped on this forum and on the internet after a reloading layoff for kids/career and the next thing I know is that my wife's new G34 is going to "blow up" on me. I searched the internet and many of the stories were of "someone who knew someone who......". It seems after doing the research on the internet, for whatever that is worth, there are two camps. The first camp is someone who had a friend of a friend who.... or you have others who have reloaded lead in their Glock for years and never had an issue. Well, I just worked up a load for the G34 for the wife, 125 Bear Creek moly's. She has ran through 1200 so far, I will let you know if/when it blows up. No problem so far.

[earlbob]

Too many know-it-alls out there that don't have any experience, reading experts.

I suppose the comment is directed to me, and you assume I am a know it all with no experience. As a matter of record I have loaded well over 250,000 rounds and wore out a good press (Dillon sent me a new one) and a lot of parts to boot. I also am an avid reader and consider other peoples thoughts when expressed with wisdom and intelligence as worth something. Part of the challenge of remaining teachable is allowing humility an opportunity to dwell in ones heart. This I endeavor to do always. I also am not some quaking with fear of my gun blowing up chicken in case someone has that ignorant thought working its evil in their heart. I work at a dangerous job which requires constant consideration of what is going on and making quick decisions as to what is safe and what is not. Men's lives depend on my judgment every day with my mistake easily resulting in their death or disability. The wisdom acquired from this constant attention to safety leads me to consider the risk of shooting cast lead bullets out of MY Glock to be an unacceptable risk to others who are near. YOU can do what you want and if someone is injured because of your gun blowing up then its your problemo not mine.

and hopefully this concludes my participation in this particular post.

adios and love, earl

[Cy Soto]

About a year ago I had the honor of RO'ing a Level 2 match here in Colorado alongside Mark Passamaneck who, as many of you may know, is the gentleman who wrote that chapter in the book "The Glock in Competition" in which he talks about his experience shooting lead bullets through the barrel of a G22. I must disclose at this point that I have never had the chance to read this book so I took advantage of this opportunity to ask him about it. I told him that I have been shooting bare lead bullets through the OEM barrel of my G17 for quite some time and I had never really had trouble with leading.

I was half expecting him to tell me that I was crazy for doing this and that I should immediately cease this practice. Imagine my surprise when he told me that, as long as only shot lead bullets and I checked the barrel of my gun regularly (cleaning it when necessary), I shouldn't have a problem shooting lead in a factory barrel. He did tell me that the problem is that some people may never check or clean their barrels (ever) and therein lies the problem.

One point that he brought up (and one which I had never before considered) is that solvents usually tackle either copper or lead deposits but seldom both. This means that if the shooter switches back and forth between shooting FMJ/Plated bullets and bare lead bullets, there is a higher chance that there may be some deposits left behind that may not be properly cleaned which, over the course of many thousand rounds, may reduce the inside diameter of the barrel thus increasing pressure.

The truth of the matter is that there are many of us that have shot thousands of rounds of bare lead bullets through OEM Glock barrels without any issues. The accuracy out of my barrel is more than acceptable (which tells me that the rifling is doing its job) and I have learned to live with the extra smoke that lead bullets bring with them. I also spend an extra couple of minutes every week scrubbing the barrel of this gun with some Chore Boy and Shooter's Choice Lead Remover.

I don't shoot lead bullets because they are my favorite; I do so because it allows me to shoot more rounds and more often. If we were talking about a price difference of a few dollars between these and FMJ's, I wouldn't shoot lead but the truth of the matter is that the price difference between these is significant. Both my wife and I do quite a bit of shooting every year and we love it but we also need to think about retirement which, even though I am only 38 years old, I know that is fast approaching. Shooting lead bullets allows me to enjoy this pastime to its fullest and doing so within our budget.

[old506]

Relax, not directed at you at all. This is a subject (not just here but on the range in books other forums etc.) that has been influenced by people who don't know, never tried, to worried to try, or like their Chevy/Ford and don't have anything good to say about the other just because. It has also been influenced where there certainly have been documented problems but tell me which firearm hasn't had problems and how many of those were reloader error or poor maintenance? I suggest googeing Glock kaboom, when I did, trying to find out about the subject, I can't tell you how many times the story was of someone who knew someone or it was someone who put up a pick of a busted up Glock that they found on the Internet and then suggested such and such pistol because it is a "real" pistol. It is interesting to me how many people want to jump in and comment on something that they don't have any experience in, that is all I was saying.

The only experience I had was because I was too naive and didn't know any better when I started reloading for my first Glock many years ago. I just reloaded lead and shot the heck out of it and then shot some ball ammo after that because that is what I "heard" that you should do. I am not saying that it is the right thing to do and I am not shooting jacketed bullets in the new gun either. I am saying that I have reloaded and shot lead and have had no problems and in fact very good results.

As far as a dangerous job, stay sharp, many of us have/had one of those.

For the record, my wife shoots the Glock, not my gun. I don't really care for them, I just have the reloading and cleaning duties! I shoot a single stack 1911, a real gun.

[Glockman1000]

To answer the OP's question in a nutshell:

No; the dimensions are all basically the same. Where you lucked out (and others have also) is by using a very hard cast lead bullet. Softer swaged bullets would oftentimes not engage the polygonal rifling and would "knuckle-ball" down the barrel. The rifling would smear off the outer diameter of the bullet and subsequently, the bore would be coated with a more-than-usual amount of lead, constricting the bore.

Along comes a bullet from a cartridge with a spiky pressure curve (40S&W) or an unsupported case web (45 ACP), and BLAMMO.

I agree with this comment, soft lead bullets should be avoided in glock barrels, or any other gun for that matter, a friend of mine has an early 35 that is hardly shot he bought some reloads from a local shooting range. The gun had a major case blowout after firing only 12 of these rounds. He had just cleaned the gun before getting to the range, and made sure the bore was clean. The extractor, plunger, spring, and cover plate blew out of the gun along with a swollen slide. He was uninjured luckily. We pulled some of the bullets and there didn't appear to be any over charges of powder. (4.0 grs. of HP-38 200gr. TC) We pulled the barrel out and couldn't see any rifling. The barrel was so severely leaded that we suspected it caused a pressure spike.

[Cy Soto]

The gun had a major case blowout after firing only 12 of these rounds.

I suspect that something other than leading must have caused such a malfunction.

[GentlemanJim]

Pretty good thread...opinions and facts...And yes I sometimes shoot Glocks

I know that not all the Glocks that have been fed lots of lead have blown up.

With a simple search, I can find quite a few that have, some resulting in very serious injury.

For me, knowing there is a risk involved would simply swap out the barrel...a $100.00 investment.

Seems like a hunderd bucks would be a cheap price to pay to get an eye or finger back

Much more importantly, the safety of the person standing next to me is paramount.

Reloading and our sport in general, carry an amount of risk...I choose to manage and reduce that risk to the best of my abilities.

I would hope other folks care as much about my safety...as I do about theirs.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

I think the reason "no one can agree on this" is that people are coming from three different levels of experience in the matter.

(1) They "know" that firing lead through a stock Glock barrel is dangerous. They've never actually done it themselves, mind you - because who would ever do something so dangerous - and sternly warn you away from the practice. "Keeping all my fingers is important to me," and so forth.

(2) They've done it but clean the barrel religiously after every shooting session - because why take chances?

(3) They've fired thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rounds of hard cast lead through standard Glock barrels without cleaning without a single problem.

Which group do you think has the greater knowledge and experience base to have a valid opinion on the topic?

Ummm...no.

(4) They have shot lead through their Glock barrel and it leaded up like crazy.

[Duane Thomas]

Um...yes. We can just add (4).