How Can I Mount A Safe To Concrete?

[PistolPete]

I want to buy a bigger safe for all my goodies and plan on keeping it in the basement. The question I have is how can I mount it to the floor and to the walls since they are concrete? Would I just get concrete bits and a powerful drill that could drill into the cement? How would I tap it? I don't want to just buy the safe and have gravity hold it down. I want this puppy to be bolted to the floor and to the wall so noone could steal it. I know where there is a will there is a way but I want to make it EXTREMELY difficult for anyone to steal.

Thanks,

Pete

[shred]

What you want are expansion bolts (also called anchor bolts) -- you drill a hole (there should be some already drilled in the bottom of your safe, so space them the same), stick the bolt in and tighten it up-- that expands the bolt it so it sticks in the hole. Most hardware stores carry them in a number of sizes and strengths. Some take many thousands of pounds of force to remove. Rock climbers (me included) trust their lives to them all the time.

A few brands are reasonable to remove after installation (assuming you have access to the bolt heads, which should be inside the safe in this case), and some (glue-ins in particular) will never come out. I'd go with some sort of removable unless you're 100% sure you like the house, safe and all exactly as and where they are, forever.

http://www.concretefasteners.com/

[D.Hayden]

Rent a hammer drill if you don't have one.. they go through concrete like butter.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Is your area wet? I can't imagine a more miserable situation than permanently bolting your gun safe into your basement, only to have the bolt holes leaking in the winter/rainy season.

Ask at the local big-box hardware store about bolts in basement walls and floors before making holes.

[shred]

Is your area wet? I can't imagine a more miserable situation than permanently bolting your gun safe into your basement, only to have the bolt holes leaking in the winter/rainy season.

Most safes already have the holes in the bottom, sometimes with cosmetic caps. Anybody in a flood-prone area might want to seal those and/or goop silicone sealant all around any bolts you install. That may hold until the waters reach the door sill.

[PistolPete]

My house is only a year and a half old and is the higest point elevation on my property. I am on a small hill and all the land around the house tapers downward. I have yet to see even a drop of water in my basement and we've had some MAJOR storms where everything around was flooded. So much so that at the bottom of our septic system was a buddle so deep and large that we had a family of ducks living there for about 2 weeks. Does anyone know how deep the concrete might be in the basement though? That would suck if I were to drill too deep and get to the soil below the foundation. I know the fill around the entire house is all sand to aid in drainage.

[Flexmoney]

Don't worry abpout drilling too deep. You likely have a basement drain already that just goes down to mother earth.

But, you should easily be good to 4 inches.

Get/rent a (real) hammer drill and a matching bit. Go for it.

[scooterj]

go to your local tool rental outfit and ask for a "Hilti gun" and fasteners.

the fasteners are held in place by a comercial epoxy and won't come out nor will they let water intrude.

if you want to move the safe for any reason, the left behind fasteners will have to be cut and ground flush with the floor and wall.

[DougCarden]

I currently have my 16 long gun safe in my Garage. I dont have it affixed to anything. I realize that if pukes want my guns and are smart they will bring an acetalyne torch and cut a hole in the side where the steel is the weakest...(well, that is what I would do.... ). I had to use three guys and a Refrigerator cart to get it moved.

I guess what I am saying unless you can pick it up with two motivated guys and carry it off you may not need to bolt it down. If you need that sort of security then by all means go for it and the advice here is right on! All the stolen gun reports I have taken in 14 yrs have NOT been in any type of safe. I have seen heavy safes messed with and damaged, but not carted off or gotten into. My .02 $ Good luck, DougC

[Merlin Orr]

Put about 6 - 50# free weight plates in the bottom....

[Caspian_45]

Don't bolt it down. Put it on a rubber mat, just slightly larger that the bottom of the safe. Now put a steel plate on the floor around the safe. Connect the steel plate and safe to a really hot "electric fence charger.

This will keep the kids (and dogs) away and really suprise the crooks.

[cking]

Don't put the safe directly on concrete. Use pressure treated wood, or some thick kind of mat. Then bolt it down. Also put in a dryer stick. Get fire rated safe, there walls are harder to cut through.

[TBF]

I didn't like the idea of drilling my basement floor either.

Used some stuff that makes new concrete stick to old concrete ( you need this stuff to get the new stuff to stick at all ) and poured a slab with the bolts cast into it.

Travis F.

[Chriss Grube]

Mine weighs in at 1100 empty. loaded ? lets put it this way 6 guys a Appliance truck, pipes, and lots of 4 letter words later it was in. You want to try and carry it out good luck, better bring a freaking crane.

[Precision40]

Put about 6 - 50# free weight plates in the bottom....

+1

You can make the safe heavier from the inside by adding lead bars, I've known many people that do this. Face it, if the safe is 700+ lbs it aint going nowhere unless you got some big machinery.

Edited January 16, 2006 by Precision40

[shred]

Better yet, fill the bottom with all that leftover Y2K ammo we all have stashed away.

[lynn jones]

how much does your safe weight now? mine weighs 750 lb. and is not bolted down.

lynn

[Rob Boudrie]

Mine weighs in at 1100 empty. loaded ? lets put it this way 6 guys a Appliance truck, pipes, and lots of 4 letter words later it was in. You want to try and carry it out good luck, better bring a freaking crane.

It's a matter of tools. I saw a 1320 lb (empty) safe installed by two professional movers - lift gate truck, hydraulic pallet jack, pipes to roll it into the final location.

Keep in mind, it's very rare for homeowners to be talking about a real safe for guns. By "real safe" I mean something with something better than the ubiquitous "residential security container" rating (which I've seen on some pretty low end stuff). The TL30 or TR30 safes will generally weigh at least 3500lbs, and most often are sized for cash and jewelery rather than guns. A TR30 will resist the cutting of a 4" diameter hole via torch for 30 minutes. TL30 provides similar resistance to 30 minutes "contact time" with power tools that can be carried by one person.

If you're getting a residential style gun safe, go for the thickest steel you can afford. 10 gauge is most common, though sometimes 12 gauge (think tin can) is used. 3/16" or better is really nice, and has that extra weight which helps keep it from walking. Be sure to store your cutting torch tips, grinding wheels and metal cutting blades inside the safe.

[AlamoShooter]

unless the safe is 'Large' most become unstable when the door is opened. If you don't bolt it down you may end up with a safety problem when the door swings open. I have move a few , but not into a basement. If you can get it down stairs it wont be that big.

If the concrete in your basement is not over 4" thick you will have a probelm any way.

They guys that move the safe should bolt it down for less than $25 including the bolts. When you buy it and arange for moving ask ahead of time and they will include the bolts.

If you go 'poor boy' you may end up paying Dr. bill for your buddies when the safe gets aways going down the stairs.

Make shur the door is locked before you try to move it! had that happen one time tilted the dolly back and the door flug open. just the wall got smashed , no body parts

[Doggorloader]

My safe's owners manual came with specific instructions on how/why it could/should be anchored to the floor and wall. I copied and pasted the jist of it here:

A N C H O R I N G Y O U R S A F E T O T H E

F L O O R A N D / O R WA L L

Placing your safe on a concrete floor and anchoring it to the floor and wall

behind it provides the maximum protection for your valuables.Many

common attacks on security safes involve tipping the safe over on its back.

You can reduce the chances of an effective attack by preventing your safe

from being tipped or moved.

WARNING: DRILLING HOLES IN THE WALL OF A FIRE SAFE REDUCES THE

EFFECTIVENESS OF THE FIRE-RESISTANT MATERIAL. IF HOLES ARE DRILLED

IN THE SAFE BODY, HOLES MUST BE SEALED WITH A HIGH-TEMPERATURE

SILICONE CAULKING. FAILURE TO DO SO MAY ALLOW HOT GASES TO ENTER

YOUR SAFE DURING A FIRE, WHICH COULD DAMAGE YOUR VALUABLES.

WARNING: WHEN USING A DRILL OR OTHER POWER TOOLS, ALWAYS USE

EYE AND EAR PROTECTION AS WELL AS A DUST MASK.

A N C H O R I N G T O T H E F L O O R

CONCRETE FLOOR

IMPORTANT: PRE-DRILL THE PASS-THROUGH HOLES IN THE SAFE BACK

AND FLOOR PRIOR TO ANCHORING THE SAFE TO THE FLOOR OR WALL.

1 Remove the safe interior shelving, floor panel and elevation brace.

See removal instructions under “Shelf Adjustment”on page 16.

2 Measure and mark four anchor holes 2" from the safe corners.Use a

minimum of 3⁄8" x 4" expansion-type anchor bolts and 13⁄4" steel washers

inside the safe floor to reinforce it at the anchor positions (Figure 2).

3 Elevate the safe by placing it on 2" x 4" wood braces. Place the 2" x 4"

wood braces flat on the floor and slide one brace under the front of

the safe and one brace under the rear of the safe, elevating the safe 11⁄2".

FIGURE 1

Door must be clear of frame to remove.

Lift straight up to avoid damaging bolts.

FIGURE 2

Anchor holes should be placed in

the corners.

4 Use a 2" wood bit to drill through the fire-resistant floor material

to expose the steel floor. (Not required on models that are not

fire-resistant.)

5 Drill a 1⁄2" hole through the center of each anchor point in the

safe floor.

6 Place the safe exactly where you want to anchor it and mark the

floor through the holes in the safe bottom.

7 Remove the safe and drill anchor holes in the floor with a 3⁄8"

masonry bit.

8 Reposition the safe over the holes and install the expansion anchors

and washers through the safe floor. IMPORTANT: PRE-DRILL WALL

ANCHOR HOLES IN THE SAFE PRIOR TO ANCHORING THE SAFE TO

THE FLOOR OR WALL. SEE “ANCHORING TO A WALL” ON PAGE 9.

9 Fill the 2" openings in the fire-resistant material with high

temperature silicone caulking. The caulking will seal the opening

and prevent hot gases from entering the safe during a fire. (Not

required on models that are not fire-resistant.)

10 Replace the floor brace, floor panel and interior shelving.

A N C H O R I N G T O A WA L L

Anchoring to a wall, in addition to the floor, further strengthens your

anchoring system. (Without wall anchors, the height of the safe allows it to

be used as a lever to pry against the floor anchors.)

MASONRY WA L L

IMPORTANT: PRE-DRILL THE PASS-THROUGH HOLES IN THE SAFE BACK

AND FLOOR PRIOR TO ANCHORING THE SAFE TO THE FLOOR OR WALL.

1 Measure 2" from the top and each side of the safe’s top interior corners.

Mark these spots on the safe’s interior with a marker (Figure 3).

2 Using a sharp utility knife cut a 2" x 2" “X” in the carpet where you

marked. Tape the carpet flaps open using masking tape.Use a 2" wood

bit to drill though the fire-resistant insulation.Do not attempt to drill

through the steel safe body with the wood bit.

3 Use a 1⁄2" high-speed bit designed for drilling metal to drill through the

steel safe wall. Once you have drilled though the fire-resistant material

and safe body, mark the center of your holes on the wall.

4 Remove the safe and use a 3⁄8" masonry bit to drill the anchor holes.

Reposition the safe over the holes and install the expansion anchors

and washers through the safe interior.Use a minimum of 3⁄8" x 4"

expansion-type anchor bolts and 13⁄4" steel washers inside the safe

body to reinforce the safe wall at the anchor position.

5 Fill the holes in the safe interior with high-temperature silicone

caulking and reposition the carpeting “X” cut out. The caulking will

hold the carpet in place.

Mine is in the upstairs reloading room and I bolted it into the floor joists just to keep a thief from tipping it over for easier access. It took four guys to get it up there that used to be my friends. Trust me, I don't think carrying it off is a reasonable worry!

Edited January 16, 2006 by Doggorloader

[Chills1994]

"Redhead" brand expansion type anchors would work well for this.

Rent a hammer drill or better yet a rotary hammer with a carbide tipped hammer drill bit (or an SDS/spline bit for the rotary hammer). Make sure you get the extra handle with the hammer drill/rotary hammer. If a RH binds up in the hole and kicks back at you, you'll really want to be holding on to that other handle.

Dust mask.

Ear plugs.

Safety classes.

Wife or significant other with a vacuum hose to suck up the concrete dust as it comes off the spinning bit.

Another option instead of redhead anchors is just plain threaded rods and matching hex nuts and washers, a dumple pumper epoxy "caulk" gun, a two part expoxy tube and you're good to go. Just blow the holes out real good or vacuum them out (better).

OR....you could use really large tapcons. They actually thread into the concrete. Other anchors will be permanently mounted to the concrete. So if it is in the floor, you will be forced with lifting the safe high enough to clear the anchors. Tapcons you can screw in and screw out repeatedly, leaving the floor or wall with just a flush hole, no bolts to grind flat. Tapcons are usually blue. They look like a wood or a lag screw. Get the ones with the hex heads, and a drill with enough torque to thread them in.

Pallet jack sounds like a good idea. A walk out basement too. Pipes, lots of steel gas pipe, roll it around like the Egyptians built the pyramids.

Chills

[Thomas Moore]

if your safe is in the basement and it weighs more the 500lbs i wouldn't worry about bolting it to the floor. put the safe up on some pressure treated wood and bolt it to the wood this way when the door is open it won't fall on you.

if a thief wants your guns they won't remove the safe anyway. a plasma cutter is much lighter and faster.

just my thoughts.

[Chills1994]

The plasma cutter I used before required the plasma tool part itself, of course, and then an air compressor, with oil and water filters.

And I don't know what kind of electricity it takes to run a plasma cutter, if a standard 110 electrical outlet would do it, or if it requires a 220 outlet, say like for a clothes drier.

That would be a lot to take covertly into someone's house to steal their guns.

1. A plasma cutter (and some cutters are only good for X amount of thickness of steel)

2. An air compressor

3. Heavy duty extension cords (110/220?)

4. Air hose

5. Leather gloves

6. Cutting goggles/mask/shield

Not to mention that most air compressors are pretty darn loud when they kick on, also the air that the PC is spitting out makes some noise.

Not trying to knock your point Thomas Moore...that just seems like a lot of work and kinda obvious to the neighbors.

Lincoln's website show's one PC weighing in at 29 lbs that can cut 3/8" thick steel. The next size up is 55lbs and can cut up to 1" thick. And I guess you could use a compressed air tank or cylinder, instead of lugging an air compressor around. An air tank wouldn't make any noise like an AC would.

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/e...sheet.asp?p=452

Now if you live out in the stix with neighbors a half mile or more away then that might be just the ticket if said bad guys know the homeowners are away for a good while. And the bad guys know that there is a $30,000 Perrazzi or two in the safe.

A right angle grinder with a wafer cutting blade or even a Sawzall with a metal cutting blade in it would be the cheaper way to go, if you're a BG.

The Sawzall would only work if the safe wasn't made out of hardened steel. The wafer blade cuts through anything, doesn't matter. Although it might take a bunch of blades to do it.

Getting back to bolting the safe, though, tapcons are heat treated, so even if a person could get to 'em with a long Sawzall blade, that still wouldn't cut it. Whereas most anchor bolts, I bet you could cut with a Sawzall. They're just plain non-hardened steel, like a hardware store bolt.

On a different note, I wonder what a pair of "duck bills" and a couple of hydraulic power packs would do to the door/frame of a gun vault.

I've moved 100 + ton turbine rotors with duck bills before.

Anybody out there like Consumer Reports actually do any testing of gun vaults/safes where we could see the reports?

At one gun show I went to, the guy selling gun safes said his actually have Underwriter's Laboratory's stamp/sticker of approval. Something to look for.

Chills

[shred]

Safes in general are rated by the UL.

The typical ratings are things like TL-15, which means "resists typical tool attacks for 15 minutes" or TXTL-15, which means "15 minutes with tools and explosives to get in".

Gun safes almost all have the "residential security container" rating, which I think basically means "5 minutes with tools".

[Tom Mainus]

Just got my Fort Knox safe this week. I have 5 of my closest friends coming over Sunday morning to help me get it down the stairs and into the basement. It weighs 1,000Lbs. Should be interesting.

Tom