New 3 Gunner...a Little Advice Please?

[droopus]

Hey all..

I've been shooting IPSC and IDPA pistol for a couple of years and now have decided to take the big leap into 3 gun. Some questions for those patient enough to help out a newbie. My first match will be the LIPSA 3 Gun on March 3 ANY advice welcome but I have a few already.

Equipment.

Pistols: I shoot SIGs. I expect to be shooting either a stock P229 or a Bruce Grayed SigPro 2022 with port/comp, trigger/short reset and a Docter site. Pistol is the least of my worries.

Rifle: My first dilemma. I have three ARs. I know one is out...Colt M4, multiple optics, short barrel, suppressor. The other two choice are: Colt M4, Aimpoint M2/3X optics, front site replaced by gas block, otherwise stock, good accuracy OR a Les Baer Custom AR with a Leuopold Mark 4 10x 40 and Harris bipod. Ridiculously accurate but kind of heavy. But from 250 meters I can put rounds through the same hole all day. Is the accuracy worth the weight? I am MUCH faster with the Colt but the seconds saved might result in a few flyers.

Shotgun: I have a Winchester 1300 18" pump that's pretty good but has a few malfunctions. It would have to visit the smith before I compete with it. FO sight. I also have a Remington 11-87 Police autofeed, 18" but it's still breaking in. I do two days with a few cheap cases of high brass and we should be ok. My only problem there....I tried a tube reloader and I got a stovepipe and a jam. But with the right load, I can empty it in 2 seconds pretty accurately. Suggestions please?

So.....which guns? Any other pointers so I can see my name, proudly just above the DNFs?

Thanks all.

Edited January 15, 2006 by droopus

[Bronco]

I'd go with p229, M4 with the aimpoint, and the 11-87 to shoot tactical. There will be others in that divison with similar equipment. If it all runs and you practice a little you'll be way above the DNF's. Good luck Keith

[droopus]

I'd go with p229, M4 with the aimpoint, and the 11-87 to shoot tactical. There will be others in that divison with similar equipment. If it all runs and you practice a little you'll be way above the DNF's. Good luck Keith

Hey Bronco thanks for the advice. My only concerns are the following:

The Remmy 11-87 shotgun is amazing and I shoot it well, but I'm on my third case of high brass birdshot and it still won't feeed anything else reliably (well except slugs and then it takes me like three hours to clean the barrel.) But I can't trust the Winchester 1300 at all, so I agree wth you. Could you tell me why you think the gun is taking so long to "break in?" I put 1 Lawman 00Buck in a full mag last week and it still stovepiped. I know I'm really breaking in the action but should it this long? Also, when I installed the reloading tube "rack" it really stopped feeding. I assume I can put it back when the action is broken in? Or is this weird?

Totally agree on the pistol. I competed with it all last season and now it has a new Novak rear and Dawson front, so no prob on that. I love that gun, even if I do score Minor with a Major round.

The other thing is that the Colt M4 has TWO optics...an Aimpoint M2 and a Aimpoint 3x Magnifier. (Makes a huge difference.) Wouldnt I have to remove one optic to remain in class? That's why I suggested the SIGPro with the Docter, cause I'd be shooting Open anyway because of the two optics on the M4. Might as well use a dot and port/comp if I'm shooting Open. I'll get crushed but it'll be fun.

[bgary]

the Colt M4 has TWO optics...an Aimpoint M2 and a Aimpoint 3x Magnifier. (Makes a huge difference.) Wouldnt I have to remove one optic to remain in class?

Are we talking USPSA rules? If so, the USPSA Board passed a rule-change last fall which clarifies this. In essence, it says that a magnifier is *not* considered a second optic, subject to some restrictions:

President moves the BOD to approve the following interpretation A magnifier may be used with an optical sight in Tactical division without violating the "one optic" rule, provided: a> the magnifier does not contain an aiming reticle b> the magnifier can not be used as an aiming device by itself c> the magnifier is mounted in the same location on the rifle for the entire match If these provisions are satisfied, a> the magnifier will not be considered a second/separate optic, b> and the competitor may start and use their optic in either magnified or unmagnified mode without further restriction.

So... your M4 with aimpoint and 3x magnifier would be *legal* in Tactical division under the USPSA rules, as long as you leave it on the rifle for the whole match.

Bruce

Edited January 15, 2006 by bgary

[John Dunn]

I'd start with what you have. For the M4 without the can, make sure you run relatively hot ammo so that it makes minor, some ammo won't make it in a 14.5/16" barrel. Next I'd replace the flash-hider with an actual muzzle break (Wakal, TSS, JP, MSTN, Miculek, etc.). Should be good to go after that.

For the shotgun, go with the 11-87. A pump will be a tremendous handicap, especially one that malfunctions. Get the 11-87 running! A good resource is Matt Burkett's new Shotgun video. I think the 11-87 gas system is adjustable for different loads, you may need to adjust that for your loads/clean the gun/run hotter ammo. No matter what, bring a gun that works!

As to open class, your shotgun will be the least competitive due to it's limited mag capacity. I'd start in tactical class, see what the good guys are using, and upgrade as needed.

[kellyn]

You said, big leap. So I'm going to give you some big leap advice. Pick an equipment division that you want to shoot in and start tuning your equipment in that direction. It sounds like you want to be in the Tactical (scope) division(s). So ....

Pistol: Keep the Bruce Grayed Sig (becuase it's cool) and don't shoot it in 3 gun. But get a 9mm or .40 STI 5 inch limited gun for 3 Gun. If you must shoot a SIG, shoot the 229 so you can stay in Tactical.

Rifle: Forget about the Les Baer for 3 gun. Go shoot some really nice groups with it and impress your friends. Or better yet, terrorize a prairie dog town with it. Better still, sell it and get JP AR or Accuracy Speaks AR or Triangle Shooting Sports AR, shoot really nice groups, terrorize prairie dogs, and win in 3 Gun too! But if you want to keep it, do what John said and switch to the M4 but get a good comp. I'd ditch the aimpoint and put a low powered variable scope on it, unless your matches are under 100 yards. If you're feeling really sporty, get a good handguard i.e medeshafirearms.com, accuracy speaks, JPrifles.com or Jeff Cramblit's.

Shotgun: I've sure heard lots about pumps guns that can keep up with or even beat autos but I've yet to see it (in the dozens upons dozens of 3 gun matches I've attended). So stick with the 11/87. Forget the speed sticks and if you can, load weakhand 4rds. at a time a la Kurt Miller. If not, load strong hand a la me!

Other bits of advice:

Stay out of Open class unless you have all the stuff. Unless you're planning on heading there and ...........

HAVE A GOOD ZERO ON YOUR RIFLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 16, 2006 by kellyn

[ArnisAndyz]

One problem you might encounter with the 1187 is that you have the "Police" model which is designed to be used with self-defense (heavier) rounds. don't know about your area, but our steel is calibrated for 71/2 birdshot, so be sure you test your Police with those light rounds. If you can shoot heavier loads (many ranges won't let you shoot less than #6 because it might damage steels) you'll be at a handicap shooting harder recoiling shells vs light target loads. Do a search on Remington's Barrel Seal Activator. Its an accessory that comes with the Super Magnum for shooting light loads, it may work with the police model.

Another thing with the 1187 police is that your limited to 7+1, where most shooters will have 9 in the gun.

I shoot a pump action and can hold my own at the local club level. I actually came in first place overall on two different stages using my pump gun against limited and open semi-autos,although I didn't do as good overall. Until you get into the big leagues, a pump will serve you well. A pump will also allow you to shoot the lightest loads with no malfuctions (other than operator induced). That being said... I shoot in HeMan division which requires the use of a pump, I probably would use a semiauto for shooting in limited or tactical.

Edited January 18, 2006 by ArnisAndyz