ima45dv8 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 This struck me as odd..... NROI Form A - Course Design ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ * Item 4 -- "Yes, the stages are essentially freestyle. Competitors are permitted the freedom to solve the competitive problems within the safe and relevant situation provided. Competitors can see only those targets to be shot from any single firing position. Competitors will never have to memorize which targets are to be shot from the various positions or views." (emphasis added) I hope I'm misunderstanding the last two lines. It seems to imply that no target will be available from more than one shooting position, thus never having "....to memorize which targets are to be shot from the various positions or view". I can't help but imagine an arbitration committee possibly finding a course of fire to be illegal if a target (or targets) can be seen from more than one location. We commonly offer one or more targets from more than one location just to give shooters a choice of how to navigate a stage. I hope we're not going to be limited to offering each target only once in a course of fire. That would take us back to those halcyon days of "Box A ==> Array A, Bob B ==> Array B, etc". Perhaps Item 4 is just suffering from being worded poorly. It seems to be in contradiction with Item 5 -- "Yes, if a competitor can see a target, they may shoot that target." The more I look at this it seems just an attempt to outlaw so-called "memory stages". I wonder who'll get to decide if a stage is a "memory stage".... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ * Item 9 -- Spelling errir Shoot-troughs (instead of shoot-throughs?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Do you have a link to the complete form? Thanks, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 The forms are in the board minutes section, and will be in the forms area of the website once I find out where NROI wants them. My understanding is that "Competitors can see only those targets to be shot from any single firing position. Competitors will never have to memorize which targets are to be shot from the various positions or views." means that you can only see the targets you should be shooting at. It does not prohibit the seeing of a target from multiple shooting positions if it is legal to shoot from those multiple positions. What is to be avoided are situations where you have a clear view of a target from a shooting position and must remember that particular target is not engageable. I consider this totally consistent with "If you can see it, you can shoot at it." The is a clear difference in meaning between "can only see those targets..." and "target can only bee seen from one position.". The former does not imply the later. And, the usual disclaimer applies that all interpretations are only official when made by NROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 The more I look at this it seems just an attempt to outlaw so-called "memory stages". I wonder who'll get to decide if a stage is a "memory stage".... It's not any such attempt, just an explaination of what has always been considered good course design. I would not have voted to approve the forms if I felt the chcecklist did in fact have the meaning you suggest. Consider a "crowd control" stage with two rows of targets - the shoots targets are in the back row, with no shoots and hard cover in the front row. The shooter has a huge shooting box facing the targets and is told to engage each target. Some, but not all, targets are available from each point in the large box. Your mission is to engage every target without wasting time re-engaging targets from multiple positions. Such a course would be consistent with the NROI from since every target could be engaged from any position where visible - but you would still have to use your memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I must be easily confused or 5 hours of sleep didn't quite cut it. You can shoot them where you see them from and any target that you see, can be engaged from that shooting position. So what if anything changed? How about one more run at this section: "Competitors will never have to memorize which targets are to be shot from the various positions or views." Sorry if I'm overly thick this morning, I haven't had my coffee yet. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 How about one more run at this section: "Competitors will never have to memorize which targets are to be shot from the various positions or views." "If you can see a target from a shooting position, you are allowed to shoot at it. It is permissable to be able to see a target from multiple shooting positions, provided you are allowed to shoot at it from any of these positions where it is visible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I must be easily confused or 5 hours of sleep didn't quite cut it. You can shoot them where you see them from and any target that you see, can be engaged from that shooting position. So what if anything changed? How about one more run at this section: "Competitors will never have to memorize which targets are to be shot from the various positions or views." Sorry if I'm overly thick this morning, I haven't had my coffee yet. Rick I THINK that teh idea here is to dis-allow so-called "Memory Courses" where in the shooter must only engage target T-1 & T-2 from Position A and T-3 & T-4 from Postion B and so on. However what most of us think of as a memory course is I think one where you can see many of the same targets from different positions and sometiems the views look identical, but it is up to you to realize you have or have not shot a particular target already. Anyone remember the course out in East Huntington, PA a couple years back? THis course was a bear, but if I read correctly it would be legal. It is the requirement to remember REQUIRED shooting positions that is being disallowed here. If I am correct, the wording does need to be changed as it is more than ambiguous. Also, i think that requiring that the shooter remember which targets he is allowed to shoot at is already covered in "Freestyle". I suppose there also has to be an exception for Classifiers since we have courses that say "Engage T-1 thru T3 from box A and T-4 to T-6 from Box B ONLY." (Very much paraphrased, I don't have time to look up the classifiers in question) Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thanks Rob, I am smelling the coffee now and it is starting to click. Thanks for being patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckw Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 What's up with motion 8+9 and where did that all come from? I thought the green book was the 15th edition but it says 13th edition? WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thans for the feedback, Rob. I think part of my confusion and concern came from the use of the word "memorize". Looking through the responses it's easy to see that a "memory" stage might mean different things in different places. I was thinking of exactly the type of stage you described as a "crowd control" stage. As long as those aren't outlawed, I'm happy (the louder they groan, the better the stage! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I sure hope there's a classifier exemption. About half of them have required shots over, under or through things on targets you can see from elsewhere. Or even the typical 'shoot T1-T3 through barrel A, then engage..' sorts of COFs that are also fairly common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 USPSA giveth new classifiers, ill-considered rules changes taketh them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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