Muzzle exclusion zones

[njl]

I'm curious about this, given the thread (and FB post) about the DQ at nationals under this rule.  Given what happened there, I suppose the answer to "can a door without handle or knob have a muzzle exclusion zone?" is yes...so I guess I'm wondering "how?"

 

Quote

 

2.9.1.3 Muzzle Exclusion Zone: Muzzle Exclusion Zones must be marked on doors that the shooter is required to open during the CoF. This type of muzzle safe point designates a keep out area and should be a minimum dimension of 6” square. If the muzzle points at this keep out area while the shooter is touching the doorknob/handle, the shooter will be disqualified.

 

 

The text above (2.9.1.3) is the only mention of muzzle exclusion zones in the 2024 rule book.  The final sentence above defines how a shooter can be DQ'd for a 2.9.1.3 violation.  So, if the "door" on which there is a muzzle exclusion zone has no handle or knob (suppose it's push to open), can 2.9.1.3 be violated?  Is such a muzzle exclusion zone legal?  Is this a case of "I know what the rule book says, but that's not what the rule means" or "we're interpreting this rule based not only on what the current rule book says, but also on what we remember from prior revisions of the rule book"?

The point of a rule book is to codify the rules so that everyone can read them, understand them, and game each stage to the best of their ability while being equally constrained by the rules.  If each area or club has their own unique interpretation of the rules, that makes competing under "not your usual MD" a literal minefield.

[RoundEye]

The last sentence is either poorly worded or was leftover from a prior version that should have been updated and was not.  Anyways, I always understood this rule to mean that your hand and the gun cannot be in the box at the same time, and if so, it’s ice cream for you.

 

As a result, I expect the Match Admin Guide to be updated to state all doors, ports, or windows that are required to be opened during the COF must have a knob or handle.

 

 

[njl]

1 minute ago, RoundEye said:

The last sentence is either poorly worded or was leftover from a prior version that should have been updated and was not.  Anyways, I always understood this rule to mean that your hand and the gun cannot be in the box at the same time, and if so, it’s ice cream for you.

 

As a result, I expect the Match Admin Guide to be updated to state all doors, ports, or windows that are required to be opened during the COF must have a knob or handle.

 

 

 

But as I said, that means the rules aren't what's actually written in the rule book, meaning every time someone is penalized or DQ'd for something not clearly/actually defined in the rule book as being a penalty or DQ, it's going to be unnecessarily frustrating.  You can't reasonably penalize or DQ someone based on "that's what we think the rule should have said / meant to say, even though that's not what the current rule book says."

[Joe4d]

9 hours ago, njl said:

I'm curious about this, given the thread (and FB post) about the DQ at nationals under this rule.  Given what happened there, I suppose the answer to "can a door without handle or knob have a muzzle exclusion zone?" is yes...so I guess I'm wondering "how?"

 

 

If each area or club has their own unique interpretation of the rules, that makes competing under "not your usual MD" a literal minefield.

Remove the IF at the start of the sentence.. There isnot,, nor has there ever been an "IF" associated with IDPA and that statement.
Ask at the walk through, shoot the stage the way the way they want.. IDPA is not a place to game rules or stages.. You will lose

[Twilk73]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Remove the IF at the start of the sentence.. There isnot,, nor has there ever been an "IF" associated with IDPA and that statement.
Ask at the walk through, shoot the stage the way the way they want.. IDPA is not a place to game rules or stages.. You will lose

This is the correct answer. The problem here is when the stages don’t have the same SO running it the whole time, different squads will have different rules. 

[Joe4d]

26 minutes ago, Twilk73 said:

This is the correct answer. The problem here is when the stages don’t have the same SO running it the whole time, different squads will have different rules. 

yep and it has always been that way, going back to the first matches.. 
3 guys do exactly the same thing,, one gets nothing, one gets a "cover" warning. one gets a procedural.

[ddc]

13 hours ago, njl said:

The point of a rule book is to codify the rules so that everyone can read them, understand them, and game each stage to the best of their ability while being equally constrained by the rules.  If each area or club has their own unique interpretation of the rules, that makes competing under "not your usual MD" a literal minefield.

 

Yes. Very frustrating. Welcome to IDPA.

 

11 hours ago, njl said:

 

But as I said, that means the rules aren't what's actually written in the rule book, meaning every time someone is penalized or DQ'd for something not clearly/actually defined in the rule book as being a penalty or DQ, it's going to be unnecessarily frustrating.  You can't reasonably penalize or DQ someone based on "that's what we think the rule should have said / meant to say, even though that's not what the current rule book says."

 

IDPA... 

[IHAVEGAS]

33 minutes ago, ddc said:

Yes. Very frustrating. Welcome to IDPA.

 

I hear you. 

 

While working a USPSA major a few years back I was waiting for the next squad to show up on my stage and took interest in a rules squabble on an adjacent stage. Involved in the dispute were a very experienced c.r.o., the USPSA president, the USPSA head rules guru and as soon as he could get there the also very well respected range master for the match. After what seemed like 15 minutes but was probably less (I had to go play scorekeeper but could see the meeting of minds ongoing) a decision was made.

 

IDPA I think has a very well deserved reputation for having the worst rulebook, but it seems like some of this stuff is just par for the course.