CDP Gun Poll

[deerslayer]

5 hours ago, ddc said:

 

According to my AC this also applies to CDP guns as well. So grip safeties no longer required across the board.

(At least in my area, lol...)

No possible way I would pin a grip safety on any IDPA gun.  If my AC told me it was ok, I would refer him to 8.1.7.4 and highlight the “but not limited to” part.  A DQ is inevitable.  

[ddc]

4 hours ago, deerslayer said:

No possible way I would pin a grip safety on any IDPA gun.  If my AC told me it was ok, I would refer him to 8.1.7.4 and highlight the “but not limited to” part.  A DQ is inevitable.  

 

Unfortunately the way IDPA works I wouldn't be surprised to find out that someone would DQ somebody for this in spite of the fact that this is the direction from IDPA HQ.

 

If someone get's DQ'd for this then they aren't shooting a real IDPA match.

 

[MHicks]

Even if legal I wouldn't  pin my grip safety. Not over any safety concerns. I just have never had any problem with a working grip safety, not once. iDPA or USPSA.  But I don't see how pinning a grip safety rises to the level of a DQ being "inevitable ".

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

 

Unfortunately the way IDPA works I wouldn't be surprised to find out that someone would DQ somebody for this in spite of the fact that this is the direction from IDPA HQ.

When and where did HQ say pinning a grip safety is OK?

 

 

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

 But I don't see how pinning a grip safety rises to the level of a DQ being "inevitable ".

Because 8.1.7.4 (which applies to ALL divisions) plainly says that disabling a safety device is not legal. 

Edited June 29 by deerslayer

[ddc]

1 minute ago, deerslayer said:

When and where did HQ say pinning a grip safety is OK?

 

 

Because one can (and eventually will) read 8.1.7.4 and rationally conclude that disabling a grip safety is not allowed. 

 

Ok, you got me, HQ no longer makes rulings. They rely upon their AC's and RACL's to do so.

My AC says it's legal. Therefore as far as I'm concerned it's legal.

 

You can read whatever you like into 8.1.7.4 but if your AC says it's legal to pin a grip safety then it's legal regardless of what you or anybody else thinks. 

 

Copied verbatim from my AC's email:

 

My question to him asking for clarification following a back and forth discussion about pinning the grip safety: 

"I’m sorry but I’m confused.

Wouldn’t pinning an existing grip safety violate 8.1.7.4?"

 

His response:

"The rulebook does not identify grip safety and several newer 1911s do not have them.  So to be consistent we allow the grip safety to be pinned."

 

If you don't believe me ask YOUR Area Coordinator for verification. Don't believe me just 'cuz I said so. I'm just some anonymous poster on the internet. Do your own due diligence. As far as I'm concerned I did mine. Good luck.

 

 

 

 

[deerslayer]

28 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

Ok, you got me, HQ no longer makes rulings. They rely upon their AC's and RACL's to do so.

My AC says it's legal. Therefore as far as I'm concerned it's legal.

 

You can read whatever you like into 8.1.7.4 but if your AC says it's legal to pin a grip safety then it's legal regardless of what you or anybody else thinks. 

 

Copied verbatim from my AC's email:

 

My question to him asking for clarification following a back and forth discussion about pinning the grip safety: 

"I’m sorry but I’m confused.

Wouldn’t pinning an existing grip safety violate 8.1.7.4?"

 

His response:

"The rulebook does not identify grip safety and several newer 1911s do not have them.  So to be consistent we allow the grip safety to be pinned."

 

If you don't believe me ask YOUR Area Coordinator for verification. Don't believe me just 'cuz I said so. I'm just some anonymous poster on the internet. Do your own due diligence. As far as I'm concerned I did mine. Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 I am not reading anything into 8.1.7.4 - It plainly says you cannot disable a safety device and it applies to all divisions.  It does not identify grip safeties specifically, but it does say BUT NOT LIMITED TO right before listing a few examples.  Some 1911/2011 guns were never made with grip safeties (Wilson EDC X9, for example) and therefore, can't be disabled or disconnected.  Guns that came with grip safeties that are then disabled or disconnected do not satisfy 8.1.7.4.  

 

Unfortunately, reading comprehension is not a requirement to be an AC.  I guess you will be OK as long as you only shoot your AC's matches, but what he tells you is irrelevant once you leave his territory.  If you travel to big matches in other areas, you will get a rude awakening sooner or later.

 

 

Edited June 29 by deerslayer

[ddc]

11 hours ago, deerslayer said:

 

 I am not reading anything into 8.1.7.4 - It plainly says you cannot disable a safety device and it applies to all divisions.  It does not identify grip safeties specifically, but it does say BUT NOT LIMITED TO right before listing a few examples.  Some 1911/2011 guns were never made with grip safeties (Wilson EDC X9, for example) and therefore, can't be disabled or disconnected.  Guns that came with grip safeties that are then disabled or disconnected do not satisfy 8.1.7.4.  

 

Unfortunately, reading comprehension is not a requirement to be an AC.  I guess you will be OK as long as you only shoot your AC's matches, but what he tells you is irrelevant once you leave his territory.  If you travel to big matches in other areas, you will get a rude awakening sooner or later.

 

 

 

This is getting interesting in a depressing sort of way...

 

I emailed your AC, Nicky Carter, and his position is that pinning is ok for ESP. (I assume he would also include CO and CCP but he did not mention them specifically.)

 

I have now emailed both Frank and Nicky and asked them for further clarification on this regarding CDP. 

 

If nothing else this highlights the problem with the whole "ask your AC for rules clarifications" thing that IDPA somehow thinks is a good idea.

[RePete]

With the number of AC's etc you can get that many answers a nd they could all be different.  There should only be one consistent answer and not multiple.

 

It all goes back to a very poorly rulebook written by rank amateurs.

[deerslayer]

7 hours ago, ddc said:

 

This is getting interesting in a depressing sort of way...

 

I emailed your AC, Nicky Carter, and his position is that pinning is ok for ESP. (I assume he would also include CO and CCP but he did not mention them specifically.)

 

ESP is no different from any other division, but it is badly misunderstood.  In 2021 or 2022, the new rulebook removed the long list of stuff you could do to an ESP gun and replaced it with

 

1.  incorporated comped or ported barrels are now allowed/basepads can't be more than 1.5 ounces over stock/no trigger shoes

AND  

2. must comply with 8.1.6 (allowed) and 8.1.7 (illegal)

(see appendix A.2.3.1).

 

What this essentially did was remove all previous non-safety restrictions/allowed mods and now permitted you to do almost anything as long as you didn't violate 8.1.7.4 - don't break the safety restrictions, make weight, don't add weight just to be adding weight, fit the box, and you're good.  People misinterpreted this to mean you can do anything you want to an ESP gun.  Today, the very first thing in the ESP permitted mods says "first see 8.1.6 and 8.1.7."

 

ESP is no different from other divisions and is subject to 8.1.7.4.  Keep in mind that IDPA's philosophy has always been (and still is) 1970s Com-bloc:  what is not specifically permitted is forbidden.  

 

 

5 hours ago, RePete said:

With the number of AC's etc you can get that many answers a nd they could all be different.  There should only be one consistent answer and not multiple.

 

It all goes back to a very poorly rulebook written by rank amateurs.

 

Amen - 10 different ACs will give you five conflicting answers.  I miss the days when you called HQ, talked to Robert Ray, and got an answer.  It may not be what you expected, but it was the same answer FL or TX or WA also got.  

 

The amateur rulebook is not as bad as it used to be.  There are still some goofy sections, but 8.1.6 and 8.1.7 are actually pretty clear.  What is (unfortunately) not immediately clear is that people need to read them first before reading the appendix for their division.  

Edited June 29 by deerslayer

[deerslayer]

On 6/29/2024 at 10:06 AM, ddc said:

 

This is getting interesting in a depressing sort of way...

 

I emailed your AC, Nicky Carter, and his position is that pinning is ok for ESP. (I assume he would also include CO and CCP but he did not mention them specifically.)

 

I have now emailed both Frank and Nicky and asked them for further clarification on this regarding CDP. 

Did you get any clarification from Frank or Nicky?  If they maintain that pinning a grip safety is now allowed, I would be highly curious about which specific parts of the rulebook led them to their decision.  

[ddc]

On 7/1/2024 at 9:57 AM, deerslayer said:

Did you get any clarification from Frank or Nicky?  If they maintain that pinning a grip safety is now allowed, I would be highly curious about which specific parts of the rulebook led them to their decision.  

 

Sorry @deerslayer, just saw this.

 

Both Frank and Nicky say that pinning the safety is allowed. And CDP is included in that ruling.

 

I did not ask them this recent go-around about which specific parts of the rulebook led to their decision.

 

However in my original email to Frank I did reference 8.1.7.4. as I previously posted in this thread. He did not reference 8.1.7.4 in his reply which was also posted.

[deerslayer]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:11 PM, ddc said:

 

Sorry @deerslayer, just saw this.

 

Both Frank and Nicky say that pinning the safety is allowed. And CDP is included in that ruling.

 

I did not ask them this recent go-around about which specific parts of the rulebook led to their decision.

 

However in my original email to Frank I did reference 8.1.7.4. as I previously posted in this thread. He did not reference 8.1.7.4 in his reply which was also posted.

 

Then I suspect some members in Frank and Nicky's areas are going to be angry at them sooner or later (except for me, because I don't plan to violate the rule book).  Nicky can say whatever he likes, but his opinion is meaningless when I go across the river to Arkansas.  

[ddc]

19 hours ago, deerslayer said:

 

Then I suspect some members in Frank and Nicky's areas are going to be angry at them sooner or later (except for me, because I don't plan to violate the rule book).  Nicky can say whatever he likes, but his opinion is meaningless when I go across the river to Arkansas.  

 

My hope is that they are not doing this in a vacuum but rather in concert with all the other ACs, etc.

 

Unfortunately the way IDPA chooses to disseminate this sort of information leaves everybody in the dark as to how these questions would be answered by any AC you have not had contact with.

 

The list is too long and it would be ridiculous to expect us to have to copy every AC in the country with our email questions however that is apparently what IDPA wants us to do.

 

Chaos...

[RePete]

2 hours ago, ddc said:

 

My hope is that they are not doing this in a vacuum but rather in concert with all the other ACs, etc.

 

Unfortunately the way IDPA chooses to disseminate this sort of information leaves everybody in the dark as to how these questions would be answered by any AC you have not had contact with.

 

The list is too long and it would be ridiculous to expect us to have to copy every AC in the country with our email questions however that is apparently what IDPA wants us to do.

 

Chaos...

 

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, ddc said:

 

My hope is that they are not doing this in a vacuum but rather in concert with all the other ACs, etc.

 

Unfortunately the way IDPA chooses to disseminate this sort of information leaves everybody in the dark as to how these questions would be answered by any AC you have not had contact with.

 

The list is too long and it would be ridiculous to expect us to have to copy every AC in the country with our email questions however that is apparently what IDPA wants us to do.

 

Chaos...

I completely agree.  

[ADulay]

Shooting CDP with a Glock 30.  Mainly because I carry it.

 

Also have a G41 and G21 but the G21 got turned into a Mech-Tech 45 Carbine so that just makes it easier to shoot the carry gun and be done with it.

 

AD

[MarilynMonbro]

Between the 41 and 21 which would y'all choose?  I don't know if there's a gen 5 of the 41 but there is a gen 5 21

[jpm2953]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:56 AM, MarilynMonbro said:

Between the 41 and 21 which would y'all choose?  I don't know if there's a gen 5 of the 41 but there is a gen 5 21

I would like to try a 21. Im currently shooting a 41 with a SLR magwell, carver basepads, TLR1 light and a 13lb recoil spring. It shoots great!!! 

[Runswithwood1]

Either a Dan Wesson pointman 45 or my springfield operator I've had for years.

[RangerTrace]

If I were to shoot CDP, which I never have, I would have to shoot my P220 Legion.  My only single stack 1911/45 has a bull barrel.