The Future of Major Scoring

[THS]

Accuracy-   There are DAMN few tests like the 50 yard standards.    There is no room for sight or trigger error at 50 yards.  Yes the hosers would while like a jet turbine if we brought that back.

 

Speed-  In the early 90's, my number is 177XX, it was speed to recover between shots as much as speed of movement, at least in the area I shot.  As the game has turned into a movement test that has been weighted almost too much.

 

Power-   I cant argue with what has been written-  It takes work to develop the technique to manage a major limited gun, and honestly I dont have the time for that so I take the Minor penalty.

 

USPSA today is NOT about shooting- it is about Gun handling.  Moving, reloading, draws etc are not "Shooting" they are what we do to get to the shooting, and done on the clock.

 

This will send some off the deep end- but one way re-rebalance the three parts of the DVC triad is to make it score divided by (time x 3) with Major and Minor in all divisions, except for single position speed shoots where time would be as now.   The tablet could do the math for us.  The net result would be to push folks to A's while minimizing the weight of speed.   Fast shooting- recoil management and recovery- would be rewarded in speed shoots and movement time would be less weighted in long courses.   I doubt the real top echelon would be impacted much, though I'd like to see how the other 97% of shooters stacked up.

 

Yes I know it will never happen.

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Did he have to go prone? That's the one people really hate LOL

 

And also are you saying you would have liked to have all those low ports or that it look like too many?

 

I didn't quite watch the whole video but didn't see him go prone. More low ports then I'd like to see. But I turn 71 next month and am portly. I still can squat pretty low unless the port is too low. At level 2s and above I expect to see prone, low ports, maybe a stage with a longer run in it. I don't have a problem going prone if it's the last position. Most Cooper tunnels I've seen weren't too bad. I can still move around but am not fast

[MHicks]

I have shot the Schmidt standards several times (starts with 50 yard target with par time). This has been at the Western States Single Stack match. Even as a B shooter it was fun.

[barry]

44 minutes ago, THS said:

Accuracy-   There are DAMN few tests like the 50 yard standards.    There is no room for sight or trigger error at 50 yards.  Yes the hosers would while like a jet turbine if we brought that back.

 

Speed-  In the early 90's, my number is 177XX, it was speed to recover between shots as much as speed of movement, at least in the area I shot.  As the game has turned into a movement test that has been weighted almost too much.

 

Power-   I cant argue with what has been written-  It takes work to develop the technique to manage a major limited gun, and honestly I dont have the time for that so I take the Minor penalty.

 

USPSA today is NOT about shooting- it is about Gun handling.  Moving, reloading, draws etc are not "Shooting" they are what we do to get to the shooting, and done on the clock.

 

This will send some off the deep end- but one way re-rebalance the three parts of the DVC triad is to make it score divided by (time x 3) with Major and Minor in all divisions, except for single position speed shoots where time would be as now.   The tablet could do the math for us.  The net result would be to push folks to A's while minimizing the weight of speed.   Fast shooting- recoil management and recovery- would be rewarded in speed shoots and movement time would be less weighted in long courses.   I doubt the real top echelon would be impacted much, though I'd like to see how the other 97% of shooters stacked up.

 

Yes I know it will never happen.

All that would do is change hit factor.3x 15 seconds is still half as much as 3x30 seconds slow will still be slow . 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, THS said:

Accuracy-   There are DAMN few tests like the 50 yard standards.    There is no room for sight or trigger error at 50 yards.  Yes the hosers would while like a jet turbine if we brought that back.

 

Speed-  In the early 90's, my number is 177XX, it was speed to recover between shots as much as speed of movement, at least in the area I shot.  As the game has turned into a movement test that has been weighted almost too much.

 

Power-   I cant argue with what has been written-  It takes work to develop the technique to manage a major limited gun, and honestly I dont have the time for that so I take the Minor penalty.

 

USPSA today is NOT about shooting- it is about Gun handling.  Moving, reloading, draws etc are not "Shooting" they are what we do to get to the shooting, and done on the clock.

 

This will send some off the deep end- but one way re-rebalance the three parts of the DVC triad is to make it score divided by (time x 3) with Major and Minor in all divisions, except for single position speed shoots where time would be as now.   The tablet could do the math for us.  The net result would be to push folks to A's while minimizing the weight of speed.   Fast shooting- recoil management and recovery- would be rewarded in speed shoots and movement time would be less weighted in long courses.   I doubt the real top echelon would be impacted much, though I'd like to see how the other 97% of shooters stacked up.

 

Yes I know it will never happen.

 

 

Of course USPSA today is about shooting. It just happens to be about shooting while doing all of those gun handling things. If you just want a straight up shooting match with none of that other stuff then bullseye is where you will find that. And NRA bullseye is pretty cool, but don't confuse what bullseye is with what USPSA should be

 

 

USPSA test practical things, things like shooting, shooting while moving, reloading, running, shooting while squatting, shooting while in a tunnel, drawing, loading your gun under stress, etc. USPSA was never meant to be strictly shooting only, those bases had already been covered. USPSA is and should remain dynamic.

 

PS distance shooting is part of that dynamic style shooting and probably should be incorporated more than it is in many matches. Here lately several of the matches I've went to have done 30 yard and 35 yard shots, haven't had a 50 yarder in quite a while though

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

I'm not wondering about what used to happen, I'm asking who wants to do that now for real

me.

 

i enjoy the 50 yd standards at western states ss, and i have designed and built some 100 yard running stages (with knee high hurdles) for the hawktech/parma 1911 match.

 

but im only 62. i get that there are some older folks, so when i have a prone position i usually make the targets available from  other less advantageous positions as well.

Edited March 20 by motosapiens

[shred]

50 yard shots and/or standards used to be expected at any L3 match 20 years ago, as were low ports and/or prone and dragging/carrying things to make you shoot one-handed.

 

 

 

[MHicks]

There can be specialty matches where shooters know that the match has more running, obstacles, climbing then other matches. As for 100yds running,  hurdles, many more difficult shooting positions, that's fine at a match thats know for those challenges but I don't expect or want it at a typical level 2 or above USPSA match

[pskys2]

20 hours ago, shred said:

50 yard shots and/or standards used to be expected at any L3 match 20 years ago, as were low ports and/or prone and dragging/carrying things to make you shoot one-handed.

 

 

 

Carrying a dummy, haven't done that since double tap 2 decades ago.  Guess that would be considered physical.

[lroy]

I asked a GM that's been shooting uspsa for almost as long as I've been alive, what happened to all the more physical props that stages used to have.

 

He told me all the guys that used to enjoy them got old. Lol

[shred]

Yeah, what seemed cool to a bunch of 20-somethings seemed less so to a bunch of 40-somethings.  Then the ez-button rules for PCC came along and killed off the rest of it.  

[Schutzenmeister]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Yeah, what seemed cool to a bunch of 20-somethings seemed less so to a bunch of 40-somethings.  Then the ez-button rules for PCC came along and killed off the rest of it.  

 

40 somethings?

 

You an I passed that mark a couple of decades ago!

 

 

[shred]

Decade and a half maybe   But I was digging through some old match books yesterday and the 2006 Open/Production nationals had two stages with prone or very-low ports.  2006 Area 1 (Stages mostly by Tom Chambers!) had bed starts, a moneybag that had to be carried and a dummy-drag. 2006 Gator match a toilet start and shooting from inside a car.  Double-Tap 2006 had swinging ports and barrel stacks to push over.  2004 East Texas Section had a gate to climb over (or run around a longer wall)

 

All of them had gun-in-box starts, table starts and multiple doors.  Most of them had one or more Texas stars as well.

 

[Schutzenmeister]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

Decade and a half maybe   But I was digging through some old match books yesterday and the 2006 Open/Production nationals had two stages with prone or very-low ports.  2006 Area 1 (Stages mostly by Tom Chambers!) had bed starts, a moneybag that had to be carried and a dummy-drag. 2006 Gator match a toilet start and shooting from inside a car.  Double-Tap 2006 had swinging ports and barrel stacks to push over.  2004 East Texas Section had a gate to climb over (or run around a longer wall)

 

All of them had gun-in-box starts, table starts and multiple doors.  Most of them had one or more Texas stars as well.

 

You're going to see some of that in a couple of weeks at the US IPSC Nationals.  The stages are posted on the match site.

[ltdmstr]

[Schutzenmeister]

4 hours ago, shred said:

 

Edited March 22 by Schutzenmeister
AD ... Double tap

[Schutzenmeister]

'98 North American ... I remember it.  Still have the jacket.  Surprisingly, it still fits!

[RJH]

51 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

This isn't supposed to be a getting out of bed and load your gun contest, it's supposed to be a shooting contest

[barry]

Uspsa has never been a pure shooting contest. Has always  had problem solving as a large part of it. Either physical or mental problem solving.

Edited March 22 by barry
Spelling

[ltdmstr]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

This isn't supposed to be a getting out of bed and load your gun contest, it's supposed to be a shooting contest

 

So along with doing away with the power factor requirement, we should do away with the "practical" element as well? 

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

So along with doing away with the power factor requirement, we should do away with the "practical" element as well? 

 

Well nobody wants to run, nobody wants to go prone, nobody wants to do low ports, and I don't want to get out of bed and have an empty gun. I'm telling you we need to just do El prez for every stage at a match. I think it's the only way to make people happy. Maybe we could do El Prez for half the stages and Nuevo El Prez for the other half

[Schutzenmeister]

20 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

This isn't supposed to be a getting out of bed and load your gun contest, it's supposed to be a shooting contest

Actually, yes it is.  The P in IPSC and in USPSA stands for Practical.  It is quite practical, in a defensive situation, to be able to get up quickly and respond to a situation.  It is quite practical to know how to load your firearm quickly to be able to respond, again to a defensive situation.  (Many jurisdictions require(d) your gun to be stored unloaded and the ammo separately.)  It is very practical to be able to engage a limited number of hostile targets by yourself.

 

What is not practical in a defensive situation?

 

Having to charge 50-100 yards to engage a numerically superior foe.  If you have to charge them it's no longer defensive.

 

Charging into a crack house with 12-15 hostiles ... All by yourself.  Not much defensive, or even smart about that.

 

Remember ... The root of the sport is the best equipment, techniques and skills to resolve a Defensive encounter.  A lot of what we do is more in line with what a SWAT TEAM is supposed to be doing.

 

Some skill sets are basic and should be tested routinely.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Actually, yes it is.  The P in IPSC and in USPSA stands for Practical.  It is quite practical, in a defensive situation, to be able to get up quickly and respond to a situation.  It is quite practical to know how to load your firearm quickly to be able to respond, again to a defensive situation.  (Many jurisdictions require(d) your gun to be stored unloaded and the ammo separately.)  It is very practical to be able to engage a limited number of hostile targets by yourself.

 

What is not practical in a defensive situation?

 

Having to charge 50-100 yards to engage a numerically superior foe.  If you have to charge them it's no longer defensive.

 

Charging into a crack house with 12-15 hostiles ... All by yourself.  Not much defensive, or even smart about that.

 

Remember ... The root of the sport is the best equipment, techniques and skills to resolve a Defensive encounter.  A lot of what we do is more in line with what a SWAT TEAM is supposed to be doing.

 

Some skill sets are basic and should be tested routinely.

 

So the p stands for practical, not defensive. But you seem to only want to focus on defensive stuff. Practical application could require charging 50 to 100 yards to engage a Target. It could also involve going into a house with multiple hostiles. You ruined your own argument with your examples.

 

Also it's very practical to keep your  gun loaded, in fact I would say the least practical thing you can do to keep your gun unloaded

[Schutzenmeister]

I submit you are wrong ...

 

Either you don't know and/or appreciate the history of the sport, or you do not care.  History of the sport:

 

History of Practical Shooting

Practical shooting is a sport that evolved from experimentation with handguns used for self-defense. The researchers were an international group of private individuals, law enforcement officers, and military people generally operating independently of each other, challenging the then-accepted standards of technique, training practices, and equipment. […]

History of Practical Shooting - USPSA.ORG

 

The sport of practical shooting originated from competitions in California in the 1950s with the goal of developing handgun skills for defensive use […]

International Practical Shooting Confederation - Wikipedia

 

Charging 50-100 yards to engage a target is NOT defensive, FULL STOP.  It is offensive.  Charging into a house full of hostile opponents is not defensive, or even sensible, FULL STOP.  It is SUICIDAL.  Storing your firearm unloaded may not be practical, but it may be the LAW (in some jurisdictions.)  Learn to deal with it!

We engage in fantasy for the most part and, I’m willing to accept, enjoy the fantasy.  But to put down the essential fundamentals of the sport is, at best, unwise.  Some dose of it is useful.

Clearly, Your Mileage Varies …

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I submit you are wrong ...

 

Either you don't know and/or appreciate the history of the sport, or you do not care.  History of the sport:

 

History of Practical Shooting

Practical shooting is a sport that evolved from experimentation with handguns used for self-defense. The researchers were an international group of private individuals, law enforcement officers, and military people generally operating independently of each other, challenging the then-accepted standards of technique, training practices, and equipment. […]

History of Practical Shooting - USPSA.ORG

 

The sport of practical shooting originated from competitions in California in the 1950s with the goal of developing handgun skills for defensive use […]

International Practical Shooting Confederation - Wikipedia

 

Charging 50-100 yards to engage a target is NOT defensive, FULL STOP.  It is offensive.  Charging into a house full of hostile opponents is not defensive, or even sensible, FULL STOP.  It is SUICIDAL.  Storing your firearm unloaded may not be practical, but it may be the LAW (in some jurisdictions.)  Learn to deal with it!

We engage in fantasy for the most part and, I’m willing to accept, enjoy the fantasy.  But to put down the essential fundamentals of the sport is, at best, unwise.  Some dose of it is useful.

Clearly, Your Mileage Varies …

 

 

You quote things about law enforcement and military in your explanation which automatically proves my point. Law enforcement and military most definitely use their guns in an offensive situation. Hell, the Marines either do or at least did define their newer 45 as an offensive weapon. I think both the colt railgun and the h&k double stack gun.

 

So while the most common use of handguns are definitely defensive, they also are definitely offensive weapons and using them in both aspects is good

 

And when you go back to the old days and watch matches, you see people running, jumping barriers, etc. Who's to say you're not running away for 50 yards being chased and then have to turn around and use your gun defensively? Having a narrow scope of what defensive might be seems incorrect