So the LEO was DQed.. ?

[Ssanders224]

42 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

this may be true of the parking lot at your range, but it is not reasonable to assume that is the case at all ranges. in many places the parking lot is close enough that is generally considered to be part of the range, and handling your gun there will be a dq if a match official sees it.

 

This is true for probably 90% of all USPSA matches I've attended. 

[Ssanders224]

56 minutes ago, THS said:

As for Unloading Area requirements it says "should" be marked, and "Must" have a berm.  Should has no requirement to it meaning not always going to be the case though preferred, and in this context "If marked then MUST have a berm" fits.   If it isn't marked how can it be required to have a berm?

 

That is mental gymnastics. 

You're the one that conflated 2.5.1 and sending someone to their car to unload a handgun. They are not interchangeable, and 2.5.1 does not make allowance for the latter. 2.5.1 specifically allows for handling of a loaded firearm in a designated area (marked or otherwise), and requires a "suitable impact zone" or backstop (usually not found at a random car in the parking lot). 

 

Again, what someone does inside of their own car is their business. I think we agree there. Generally speaking, it doesn't fall under the purview of match officials. However, a match official instructing an unknowing attendee to load/unload a handgun at or in their vehicle, in lieu of overseeing that action in a safe setting is poor match management at best. 

[MHicks]

I still say if you can't show up to your FIRST match on time at least before the safety briefing and preferably earlier or to sometime before the match contact them for all the relevant info you can get, either skip the match and go to the next one or stay and observe as a non shooter and ask your questions then.

[THS]

1 hour ago, Ssanders224 said:

However, a match official instructing an unknowing attendee to load/unload a handgun at or in their vehicle, in lieu of overseeing that action in a safe setting is poor match management at best. 

While I agree it is not the best course of action to send them to their car, DQing someone who asked for assistance, in this situation, is malfeasance and poor management as well.   

 

 

[Zincwarrior]

So a PoPo walks up to the line, forgets his carry is loaded (assuming he is not shooting that) and asks what to do. 

Tell him what to do and go to the next shooter on the list. Why is this even a thread? 

 

Quote

Exactly.  In fact you better be armed running around in this crazy world.  Expecting competitive shooters to roll to a match unarmed is just unrealistic.  For IDPA matches lately, I've been driving to the match with my match gun unloaded and holstered with two loaded mags on my belt.  Just to keep me from leaving a gun in the truck to be stolen.  I go home the same way.

I do not know about other states. I do know that in Texas, there will be a fair portion of LTC guys. That are universally told NOT to degun in the car as its more of a safety hazard.  Having someone grab an RO to degun is common. 

Edited March 5 by Zincwarrior

[shred]

3 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

This is true for probably 90% of all USPSA matches I've attended. 

This.  If the parking area in question is considered to be "the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match". you are going home if an RO sees it, and most in my experience are because there can be a plethora of unsafe gun handling in parking lots.  I've even seen (heard, then saw aftermath) an AD or two the morning of the match.  One dude thought the parking lot would be an awesome place to get some dry-fire warmup in and it would be fine 'because it was unloaded'.

 

If you're way over in the skeet parking with the dudes resting shotgun barrels on their toes or whatever then range rules apply.

 

[Makicjf]

Would not the Castle Doctrine apply to removing your EDC in the parking lot?  If I'm fully in my vehicle doesn't state law apply ?

 If I need to enter a building with a 30.06 sign clearly posted, I return to my vehicle, close the door, remove my gun ammo and holster, stow them properly exit the vehicle and lock the door .  Upon returning, I re-arm.

  If I do this at a USPSA match , I can be DQ'ed?

Jason

Edited March 5 by Makicjf

[shred]

2 hours ago, Makicjf said:

Would not the Castle Doctrine apply to removing your EDC in the parking lot?  If I'm fully in my vehicle doesn't state law apply ?

 If I need to enter a building with a 30.06 sign clearly posted, I return to my vehicle, close the door, remove my gun ammo and holster, stow them properly exit the vehicle and lock the door .  Upon returning, I re-arm.

  If I do this at a USPSA match , I can be DQ'ed?

Jason

Castle doctrine doesn't apply to a shooting club allowing you to shoot their match or not.  They could DQ you from shooting the match just because you showed up on a 3-wheeled motorcycle or drove a green car or blasted your stereo too loud on the way in and state law wouldn't care. 

 

Realistically discreet gun handling in the car is not a problem and nobody goes looking for it that I've ever seen.

 

[Makicjf]

2 minutes ago, shred said:

Castle doctrine doesn't apply to a shooting club allowing you to shoot their match or not.  They could DQ you just because you showed up on a 3-wheeled motorcycle or drove a green car and state law wouldn't care. 

 

Realistically discreet gun handling in the car is not a problem and nobody goes looking for it that I've ever seen.

 

That makes sense. 

Thanks

Jason

[RangerTrace]

4 minutes ago, shred said:

Castle doctrine doesn't apply to a shooting club allowing you to shoot their match or not.  They could DQ you just because you showed up on a 3-wheeled motorcycle or drove a green car and state law wouldn't care. 

 

Realistically discreet gun handling in the car is not a problem and nobody goes looking for it that I've ever seen.

 

As they shouldn't.  There is no magical force field around the range's parking lot.  It's not practical to stop on the street just outside of the parking lot to square your carry gun away.  It's common sense to park and secure your gun inside of the vehicle or go inside and have the RO/SO unload you.  Let's remember than 3gunners do all kinds of gun handling at their vehicles with no rule issues.

[RangerTrace]

3 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

As they shouldn't.  There is no magical force field around the range's parking lot.  It's not practical to stop on the street just outside of the parking lot to square your carry gun away.  It's common sense to park and secure your gun inside of the vehicle or go inside and have the RO/SO unload you.  Let's remember than 3gunners do all kinds of gun handling at their vehicles with no rule issues.

I will add that castle doctrine does apply to actual law.....just not the rules of the sport.

 

[Nik Habicht]

On 3/4/2024 at 2:42 PM, THS said:

Rule 2.5.2 is the answer-  there was no DQ.   It is specifically NOT A DQ to notify a range official you have a loaded firearm.

 

The rules are applied "During a match."   The parking lot is not part of a match.   2.5.1 specifically states the unloading area is "outside the entrance to the range" where a shooter can unload on their own.   Huh.   The parking lot is EXACTLY THE SAME THING outside the range.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people handle a carry \ duty gun without a range fudd looking over their shoulder daily.   If I stop to get a meal and a beer \ drink I unload and secure the firearm,  gasp, in the parking lot!   

 

 

I ran a club match for six years - and the parking lot was very much inside the range.  Handling a gun at your car got you DQ'd, and your attitude would determine whether or not the range would welcome you back for future matches, or invite you to never enter the property again.

 

Careful handing out advice, when you're not in charge of running the match.  

 

That said, if anyone with a carry permit or a LEO showed up, they either knew enough to ask, or if they didn't we'd politely tell them about the cold range, and ask them to accompany one of us to a safe place - usually a berm downrange, but it might be a side berm, if the stages were being built, to clear their gun.  We weren't running around trying to play gotcha.....

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, Nik Habicht said:

I ran a club match for six years - and the parking lot was very much inside the range.  Handling a gun at your car got you DQ'd, and your attitude would determine whether or not the range would welcome you back for future matches, or invite you to never enter the property again.

 

Careful handing out advice, when you're not in charge of running the match.  

 

That said, if anyone with a carry permit or a LEO showed up, they either knew enough to ask, or if they didn't we'd politely tell them about the cold range, and ask them to accompany one of us to a safe place - usually a berm downrange, but it might be a side berm, if the stages were being built, to clear their gun.  We weren't running around trying to play gotcha.....

yeh,, like most things.. I am sure there is alot more to this story... As I said earlier,, Not gonna second guess the RO's, RM, MD on the scene.. I'm betting overwhelming percent of people running USPSA matches arnt dicks.

[rishii]

I remember a story I was told years ago of a shooter was clearing a 45 in the trunk of his car and did the rack the round out, then remove the magazine and put a hole in floor of the trunk.

[Farmer]

So if on duty LEO’s, FBI ect show up you are required to disarm them? Not joking. 

[RangerTrace]

17 minutes ago, Farmer said:

So if on duty LEO’s, FBI ect show up you are required to disarm them? Not joking. 

On duty to watch and hang out, no.  If they are getting to shoot the match while on duty, yes.

[Schutzenmeister]

34 minutes ago, Farmer said:

So if on duty LEO’s, FBI ect show up you are required to disarm them? Not joking. 

 

I've actually had to deal with this more than once ... mostly in 3rd world countries.

 

My advice:  DON'T ARGUE WITH THE COPS PATROLING THE MATCH WITH SLUNG SUB GUNS!

 

Also ... Not joking.

 

Otherwise, @RangerTrace nailed it.

[Farmer]

5 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

On duty to watch and hang out, no.  If they are getting to shoot the match while on duty, yes.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

[IVC]

21 hours ago, Farmer said:

So if on duty LEO’s, FBI ect show up you are required to disarm them? Not joking. 

 

20 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

On duty to watch and hang out, no.  If they are getting to shoot the match while on duty, yes.

 

This applies to spectators too, not just law enforcement. The DQ under 10.5.13 applies to competitors since non-competitors cannot be DQ-ed from a match they aren't participating in. They could be asked to leave instead, but there are no specific USPSA rules that would require or authorize MD/RM to ask legally armed non-participants to leave, which would be the only remedy. 

 

In fact, I am not sure whether it could be a range violation to be legally armed at a cold range while not participating in the shooting activities and whether the host organization could enforce it in any way. Rule 3.3 allows rule deviation only for compliance with the local law (and having a CCW is not violation of the local law), while the only other rule that provides additional authority to the host organization is 10.7.3 about prohibited substances (where the host is implied to be able to have additional rules that are not covered by the USPSA). 

[Farmer]

18 minutes ago, IVC said:

 

 

This applies to spectators too, not just law enforcement. The DQ under 10.5.13 applies to competitors since non-competitors cannot be DQ-ed from a match they aren't participating in. They could be asked to leave instead, but there are no specific USPSA rules that would require or authorize MD/RM to ask legally armed non-participants to leave, which would be the only remedy. 

 

In fact, I am not sure whether it could be a range violation to be legally armed at a cold range while not participating in the shooting activities and whether the host organization could enforce it in any way. Rule 3.3 allows rule deviation only for compliance with the local law (and having a CCW is not violation of the local law), while the only other rule that provides additional authority to the host organization is 10.7.3 about prohibited substances (where the host is implied to be able to have additional rules that are not covered by the USPSA). 

That’s where I thought the rules were a bit muddy. To me the whole idea is about safety but if you have a couple of yahoo’s back in the corner showing off their new guns that kinda defeats the rules. I guess if that was the case they should be asked to leave. 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Farmer said:

That’s where I thought the rules were a bit muddy. To me the whole idea is about safety but if you have a couple of yahoo’s back in the corner showing off their new guns that kinda defeats the rules. I guess if that was the case they should be asked to leave. 

 

 

Going to be hard to ask range members to leave that are not shooting a match, and they're not in the match area. Best just to shoot your match and not worry about things outside of those parameters, unless they're actively pointing guns at you, then do whatever you feel you need to

[mmc45414]

It seems like another aspect to this is when does a match participant become a match participant.  Is someone participating prior to paying the entry fee?

 

I do not currently shoot USPSA, but when I shoot multi-gun I am traveling to and from while in custody of 2-3 firearms and 200-300 rounds of ammo for them I think I have a responsibility to be able to care for them, but by the time I hand over Andrew Jackson I am cold. 

[bluewaters182]

New to the forum. Long time listener, first time caller. 

 

My question, and surprise that no one has asked this question is....

 

Per the rule is states

2.5 Unloading/Loading Station

2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a

USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm

on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized

to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an

Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload

their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their

firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading

Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range

(or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it

should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact

zone.

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who

arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds

immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely

unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the

provisions of Rule 10.5.13.

 

 

What is this if possible stuff? Of course it's possible! In fact it's very close to being impossible to have people show up at a gun range not carrying a loaded firearm.

 

Why, is this not standard at matches to have a place where you can safely unload a loaded firarm?

 

Granted I have only shot at 3 different clubs, but to my knowledge not a single one had a station to undload a loaded firearm. 

 

This seams crazy to me, and ignoring a giant elephant in the room.

Edited March 10 by bluewaters182

[Schutzenmeister]

9 minutes ago, bluewaters182 said:

 

What is this if possible stuff? Of course it's possible! In fact it's very close to being impossible to have people show up at a gun range not carrying a loaded firearm.

 

 

Clearly ... You neither live in nor know anyone who lives in a state where carrying a loaded firearm is defacto ILLEGAL!

 

It's also possible that a given range simply does not have an area they can designate for this on the premises ... Hence they EXPECT you to show up cold!

[bluewaters182]

You are correct in this assumption. So for the remainder of the states where concealed carry is common (like mine) there are no such unloading stations that I have seen. Not saying they don't exist, they surely don't seem to be common. Especially by the answers in this thread. And I am sorry you live in such a state sir.