Any hope for Ironsight divisions?

[motosapiens]

On 5/25/2024 at 4:04 PM, Foxtrotx1 said:

9mm Carry optics guns, Limited Optics guns. If you want to keep production then give people carry optics sized mags. .40 is dead outside comp. 

meh. the agency i retired from still issues 40, as does a local sheriffs dept. from a physics standpoint size matters. 9mm is fine for some uses, but mostly its just a DEI initiative from the same trustworthy agency that brought you the steele dossier.

[RangerTrace]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

meh. the agency i retired from still issues 40, as does a local sheriffs dept. from a physics standpoint size matters. 9mm is fine for some uses, but mostly its just a DEI initiative from the same trustworthy agency that brought you the steele dossier.

Very few, if any 40 Agencies left in DFW.  It doesn't help that the Glock Rep tell them that 40 beats the frame to death.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Very few, if any 40 Agencies left in DFW.  It doesn't help that the Glock Rep tell them that 40 beats the frame to death.

good point, its not just DEI to recruit more girls and poofs, but also a push from mfrs to sell cheap guns that don’t break as much.

 

and we’re supposed to believe that 40 is much more destructive to a plastic gun, but not any more destructive to a bad guys vital signs. lolz.

[Racinready300ex]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:23 AM, Joe4d said:

No doubt in my mind production would have boomed if they went to 140mm mags the same day CO did

 

I thought this too. But, I think really it would of just slowed the transition. Once you get the hang of the optic it's better than irons and easier to shoot. Easier to shoot leads to better scores, and the division that it's easier to get better scores in will always be popular. 

 

IMO If we want to "save iron sights" we need a minor scored hi-cap irons division and we need to make sure we keep the shooting challenges easier to nerf the advantage gained by the optics. Either way, we'll never really know the answer. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I thought this too.

 

I'm not seeing it. Limited with its higher capacity was always an option even when production was at its peak. I played with Limited-minor a couple matches rather than entering as production and felt like I was cheating myself out of half of the fun of the match. 

Edited May 28 by IHAVEGAS

[ltdmstr]

Those who point to LEO/self defense market being dominated by 9mm to justify lowering or doing away with power factor requirements, or to poo poo .40, seem to ignore the fact that no real world LEO/self-defense ammo clocks in at a measly 125 pf.  And many of the proven effective rounds, like the ISP +P+, are actually closer to major than minor. 

[Joe4d]

no one cares about LEO ammo,, its about the discount store 9mm, which is generally readily available for cheaper than 40.. There is a reason 40 is nearly dead,, people dont buy them, or the ammo for them.
I like 40,, its a good all around gamer round,, but that is specifically becasue almost all the games favored or at least didnt penalize it.. Without the games,, there would be zero use for it. And thats pretty much what the public has said by moving games towards 9mm

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

Those who point to LEO/self defense market being dominated by 9mm to justify lowering or doing away with power factor requirements, or to poo poo .40, seem to ignore the fact that no real world LEO/self-defense ammo clocks in at a measly 125 pf.  And many of the proven effective rounds, like the ISP +P+, are actually closer to major than minor. 

 

The three most common defense loads around here, Critical Defense, Critical Duty, and HST, clocked at 131, 136, and 141 out of my gamer gun.  My gamer ammo is 132.  The whole "minor must be increased/major must be lowered because defense/LE ammo" argument is crap.  Meanwhile, some factory hardball is dangerously close to sub-minor.  

Edited May 28 by deerslayer

[ltdmstr]

Well, FWIW, the whole point of having a power factor requirement was to mimic what was being used for self-defense ammo at that time.  Where we are now ain't 125.  It also ain't 165.  But it seems a lot of people just want to be able to shoot the cheap sub-minor stuff.  They don't have time to reload or learn to manage recoil or any of that.  Everything gotta be easy.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I'm not seeing it. Limited with its higher capacity was always an option even when production was at its peak. I played with Limited-minor a couple matches rather than entering as production and felt like I was cheating myself out of half of the fun of the match. 

 

Well I did say thought as in past tense. But to your point Limited with a higher capacity minor gun was never a real option that's why no one did it. Vary few people are willing to enter a division with a sever handicap. 

 

LO is a good example. While sure you can just run a CO gun with a magwell many are opting to spend many thousands of dollars to gain the small edge a 2011 minor gun might have. And certainly that's a much smaller advantage then major vs minor.

 

At the end of the day that ship has sailed, irons are harder and because of that they are dying and it's unlikely to change. 

[oddjob]

Last match I shot had 86 shooters.  11 were iron sight folks. 

 

I work part time at a gun shop.  The owner has cut WAY back on 40 cal handguns.  He still orders 40 cal ammo for the people that already have them, but its a slow seller.

[deerslayer]

20 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Well, FWIW, the whole point of having a power factor requirement was to mimic what was being used for self-defense ammo at that time.  Where we are now ain't 125.  It also ain't 165.  But it seems a lot of people just want to be able to shoot the cheap sub-minor stuff.  They don't have time to reload or learn to manage recoil or any of that.  Everything gotta be easy.

 

Anybody with any sense who shoots majors where there may be a chronograph will load or buy ammo that is at least +5 over the required PF.  We've all been to big matches where everybody mysteriously chronographed unusually low.  The fact that one of the most common and popular defense rounds chronographs at 131 tells me 125 is just right.  Combine that with the fact that a lot of the available target/training ammo that most non-reloaders will have to buy runs between 125-130 and I think it's crazy that anyone is talking about increasing minor.  

[IHAVEGAS]

24 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

But to your point Limited with a higher capacity minor gun was never a real option t

 

That was not my point. If people wanted to shoot high capacity they had limited major to be competitive or minor to be frugal and just play for fun. I moved from limited to production because I preferred both the lower capacity and the greater accuracy challenge. 

[Racinready300ex]

49 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That was not my point. If people wanted to shoot high capacity they had limited major to be competitive or minor to be frugal and just play for fun. I moved from limited to production because I preferred both the lower capacity and the greater accuracy challenge. 

 

There will always be a few odd balls like you. 

 

But clearly people want capacity. No one is shooting low cap divisions, and no one is shooting iron sight divisions. 

[IHAVEGAS]

27 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

There will always be a few odd balls like you. 

 

And until they screwed up production there was even a place for us. 

[RangerTrace]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Well I did say thought as in past tense. But to your point Limited with a higher capacity minor gun was never a real option that's why no one did it. Vary few people are willing to enter a division with a sever handicap. 

 

LO is a good example. While sure you can just run a CO gun with a magwell many are opting to spend many thousands of dollars to gain the small edge a 2011 minor gun might have. And certainly that's a much smaller advantage then major vs minor.

 

At the end of the day that ship has sailed, irons are harder and because of that they are dying and it's unlikely to change. 

Irons are harder and almost impossible for the Seniors+.  

[Joe4d]

13 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

Irons are harder and almost impossible for the Seniors+.  

pfff I am pulling mine off,, at 56,, hate gadgets,, have NEVER made it through a handful of shooting sessions without a problem.. I  shoot a hand ful of matches a year driving 2 plus hours.. dun with them

 

[RangerTrace]

10 hours ago, Joe4d said:

pfff I am pulling mine off,, at 56,, hate gadgets,, have NEVER made it through a handful of shooting sessions without a problem.. I  shoot a hand ful of matches a year driving 2 plus hours.. dun with them

 

Sounds like you may have picked a bad optic.  Their reliability seems to have greatly improved in the last few years.  I've had one DPP that wouldn't zero and it was still good enough that I shot 25 matches with it.  Finally sent it in and had it back in 5 days.  If my near vision was like it was 15 years ago, I'd still shoot ESP and Limited.  But it would be lonely!!

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

And until they screwed up production there was even a place for us. 

 

Similar to how you could shoot minor in limited at a disadvantage. As far as I know there is no rule that says you can't use 10 round mags in production today. 

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

 If my near vision was like it was 15 years ago, I'd still shoot ESP and Limited.  But it would be lonely!!

There is still some heat in ESP.  Limited, not so much. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Similar to how you could shoot minor in limited at a disadvantage. As far as I know there is no rule that says you can't use 10 round mags in production today. 

 

18 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 Limited with a higher capacity minor gun was never a real option that's why no one did it. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

21 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 Limited with its higher capacity was always an option even when production was at its peak. 

 

And obviously when you said this you were quoting me talking about a minor limited division. 

Edited May 29 by Racinready300ex

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

And obviously when you said this you were quoting me talking about a minor limited division. 

 

Obviously in your imagination perhaps. 

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Obviously in your imagination perhaps. 

 

Maybe you should of read my post and the one I quoted. It was about a Prod-140 division which is just as much a LM division and CO and LO are the same today.

 

 

Had they made Prod-140 when CO went 140 I have no doubt it would of slowed the growth of CO especially back when dots broke all the time. But I think in the end we'd still be in the same place. The sport is shifting in the direction of easier to shoot and faster and has been for a long time. 

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

4 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Sounds like you may have picked a bad optic.  Their reliability seems to have greatly improved in the last few years.  I've had one DPP that wouldn't zero and it was still good enough that I shot 25 matches with it.  Finally sent it in and had it back in 5 days.  If my near vision was like it was 15 years ago, I'd still shoot ESP and Limited.  But it would be lonely!!

A ? more like all of them.. always somethign,  dead battery , lose, cant get battery in, blinking dot, wont hold zero.. thats with all the major players..