Thoughts after first matches with Prod 15?

[IHAVEGAS]

20 hours ago, zzt said:

However, some of the stages are a handicap to Prod, L10, and SS shooters.  When you can hose 16 shots without moving your feet, you force a standing reload for the locap shooters. 

 

That concern is among the multitude of things I never understood. If I have to do a standing reload because of the course design then everyone else in my division does as well and I always found it fun when you could hit a slick reload as well as a reward for that practice time at home. 

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That concern is among the multitude of things I never understood. If I have to do a standing reload because of the course design then everyone else in my division does as well and I always found it fun when you could hit a slick reload as well as a reward for that practice time at home. 

yeh at least a standing reload is a skill other than run fast 

[zzt]

8 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That concern is among the multitude of things I never understood. If I have to do a standing reload because of the course design then everyone else in my division does as well and I always found it fun when you could hit a slick reload as well as a reward for that practice time at home. 

 

Not everyone pays attention only to their Division.  Many pay attention to the overall.  There, they pay a penalty for a standing reload.

[shred]

and some people are just cranky because they should never _have_ to do a standing reload except by choice or classifier.

 

Get stuck doing several per stage for no reason except "it's the same for everyone" and it's no wonder people say screw that and move to hicap divisions.

 

 

[Joe4d]

well doing good in USPSA doesn t equal being able to shoot,,, so yeh...  I can see the run fast people being butt hurt they need to do something other than run fast

 

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, shred said:

Get stuck doing several per stage for no reason except "it's the same for everyone" and it's no wonder people say screw that and move to hicap divisions.

 

Can't remember that ever happening but if it did weird people like myself would probably consider it a fun and sort of unique challenge. I do remember one fast and close very high hit factor 8-8-8-8 where it was about two steps between reloads and it seemed like the low cap guys enjoyed it.  Just different mindsets I guess, you enjoy trying to develop and utilize the skill or you don't. 

 

15 hours ago, zzt said:

Many pay attention to the overall. 

 

I think I've got a Riley Gaines way of looking at scores rather than a Lia Thomas way of looking at them, probably another old fart thing. 

[Schutzenmeister]

52 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I think I've got a Riley Gaines way of looking at scores rather than a Lia Thomas way of looking at them, probably another old fart thing. 

OK ... I recognize the names and all.  But it's early and I've only had one cup of coffee.  So maybe I'm caffeine deficient, but the analogy just went straight over my head.

[shred]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Can't remember that ever happening but if it did weird people like myself would probably consider it a fun and sort of unique challenge. I do remember one fast and close very high hit factor 8-8-8-8 where it was about two steps between reloads and it seemed like the low cap guys enjoyed it.  Just different mindsets I guess, you enjoy trying to develop and utilize the skill or you don't. 

 

It's fine if you want that, but if you're Joe Noob with his 1911 or Glock and only brought 4 mags, you didn't sign up for a ton of standing reloads for the "challenge" of it, you signed up to run around and shoot stuff.  A bunch of standing reloads because the stage design/setup was too lazy to provide sensible ways to shoot it locap is a quick ticket to Joe switching to hicap and then everyone on the internet gets to say 'locap is dying', again.

 

The USPSA vote for 15 round Production is a sign that the people that voted mostly aren't in it for the reloads.

 

[Schutzenmeister]

46 minutes ago, shred said:

The USPSA vote for 15 round Production is a sign that the people that voted mostly aren't in it for the reloads.

I voted in favor for three reasons:

 

- Normalization w/IPSC Rules

- The 10 round limit was a genuflection to the (BS) '94 federal ban

- The (BS) '94 ban EXPIRED 20 years ago

 

The fewer reloads thing was a by-product and a gift.

 

YMMV

[Joe4d]

21 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I voted in favor for three reasons:

 

- Normalization w/IPSC Rules

- The 10 round limit was a genuflection to the (BS) '94 federal ban

- The (BS) '94 ban EXPIRED 20 years ago

 

The fewer reloads thing was a by-product and a gift.

 

YMMV

pretty much only positive I saw, other than was a half measure. Shoulda just gone with a box or length rule. 

[Schutzenmeister]

Just now, Joe4d said:

pretty much only positive I saw, other than was a half measure. Shoulda just gone with a box or length rule. 

If I may ...

 

The IPSC rule was intended to level the playing field (equipment wise) and prevent a "capacity" arms race.  Under a box or mag length rule you have every manufacturer engineering things to squeeze in one more round than the competition.  This was seen as contrary to the original intent of the division. 

 

A little research showed that virtually all of the stock out of the box production guns at the time could hold at least 15 rounds.  Hence, that was adopted as the limit for the division.  That made a lot more sense than our '94 ban limits of 10 rounds, from a competition point of view ... especially after the silly ban expired.

 

Just citing what happened ... Again, YMMV as to approval or not.

[Joe4d]

capacity arms race pretty much stabalized in open and limited as folks figured out it didnt matter a whole lot. Back then I think you had more steel frame guns,, and 15 probably was fairly standard.. But today is to0day.. You probably find 17 pretty common.. I imagine a 126 or box rule would stabilize things fairly soon. Might have guns with a 1 round advantage..and yeh would kill any 40 production guns.

[Schutzenmeister]

The ability to reload, under pressure, is, IMHO, an integral part of practical shooting.  That's not to say it should be carried to extremes, however.  (Ten round limits are silly!)  The antithesis of that today seems to be PCC.  This division (in the US) allows any size or capacity magazine and encourages a “spray and pray” mentality in the sport.

 

Sensible course design and sensible load limits (by restricting magazine sizes would be my preference) encourage both.  And yes, to that end, I would actually favor eliminating “big sticks” in Open (for all but single stack guns) and limiting all double stack magazines to 140mm.  I might even support that for PCC.

 

Just my opinion … YMMV.
 

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... I recognize the names and all.  But it's early and I've only had one cup of coffee.  So maybe I'm caffeine deficient, but the analogy just went straight over my head.

 

Score is not meaningful unless the playing field is level. 

[zzt]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned one of the trends today seems to be big stages so even the Open guys have to reload.  Well, surprise.  At the match yesterday, none of the six stages were more than 25 rounds.  Most were 24.  I wondered if the 25s were there so the CO and LO guys had to reload.  I didn't have to reload once.  Even the Classifier was one of the new rungun types.

 

I've mentioned many, many times on theses forums, there is always a place to reload without costing time.  I practice them, so I don't have a problem with them.

 

I don't think limiting mag length would sit well with Open shooters.  It's the RACE Division.  Limiting to 140 would just smoosh CO, LO and Open together.  Then the only difference would be where the dot sat and major scoring.  If that were the case, why not have just one Division.  Optical Sight 9mm; major and minor scoring.

 

I do think there should be a mag limit for PCC, if only to keep the stupid ones from hurting themselves.  I still marvel at the yahoos using plastic Glock mages with huge metal extensions on them and 57 rounds inside.  The have to constantly hold the mag in the magwell when they shoot and run.  Otherwise it would shake loose.  Why?  Most have now come to their senses and run smaller extensions.

 

I don't shoot PCC in USPSA, but I do use it for falling steel matches USPSA 'style'.  Three ETS 40 round plastic mags are light, reloadable and handle even the longest monster stage.  If I shot PCC for USPSA, I'd just use one of them.  If you need more than 8 makeup shots on a long stage, you need more practice.

[zzt]

4 hours ago, shred said:

A bunch of standing reloads because the stage design/setup was too lazy to provide sensible ways to shoot it locap is a quick ticket to Joe switching to hicap and then everyone on the internet gets to say 'locap is dying', again.

 

That is exactly why I started shooting USPSA in Limited.  I started shooting outlaw matches at my home club many years ago.  The stages were set up by Limited shooters.  I was shooting a 1911 45.  I kept thinking WTF?   I'm doing four reloads in a 1911 with no magwell, and these guys are blazing around with only one reload.   All guns were placed in the same Division and scoring was minor.  So I was at a double disadvantage.  I bought a double stack and shot 9mm factory.  When I decided to start shooting USPSA in '16, Limited it was.  SAO, major scoring and mag capacity were the deciding factors there.

[Schutzenmeister]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Score is not meaningful unless the playing field is level. 

Ah ... I'm awake now.  I would have thought pool was the playing field ... and they're generally level - by design! (LOL) It's the competitors that aren't level!  But I get your point now.

[IHAVEGAS]

"And the glory of the earth is less than it was" - Author forgotten

 

 

 

[RJH]

54 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

"And the glory of the earth is less than it was" - Author forgotten

 

 

 

 

 

I'm telling all y'all 10 round diehard guys that single stack is where it's at. I watched a couple of videos of production 15 and it looks way less interesting than I thought it would.

 

When they announced production 15 I got interested in it for just a little bit, but after looking at production guns and a couple of videos guys shooting production 15, I just went ahead and bought me a single stack minor gun. I still have the major gun too, but I hate hunting for 45 brass LOL.

 

So the good news is anybody who hates production 15 now, just come play in single stack and we'll get those numbers up maybe. And you get to shoot a real gun

 

 

And if you just wanting to dabble and have fun at it and not spend a bunch of money, I think I've got under $600 in a 1911, 6 10 round mags, and a magwell. So it doesn't have to be very expensive. I was hoping to shoot it this weekend at a match, but we got rained out so I've only practiced with it a little bit, but it's been reliable so far

[IHAVEGAS]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

I'm telling all y'all 10 round diehard guys that single stack is where it's at.

 

That, followed by limited, is where I came from. Never liked the feel of the skinny mags and I always feel safer going double action 1st round off of the draw, those are not big things though just reasons why I prefer my CZ's & Tanfo's (when you get one that ain't crapola) . For me in will be limited 10 minor, but I get what you are saying. 

[motosapiens]

On 3/16/2024 at 4:33 PM, Joe4d said:

well doing good in USPSA doesn t equal being able to shoot,,, so yeh...  I can see the run fast people being butt hurt they need to do something other than run fast

 

haha, what a silly excuse for losing. unless you are truly disabled, running fast is far less important than shooting fast and accurately and transitioning fast. 

 

when i watch people who complain about running, i usually find that they do *everything* slowly, and just aren’t very good at shooting.

 

when i watch people who win matches, i see that i can outrun many of them, and many of them are carrying lots of extra weight, but they *all* shoot at a very high level.

[Nolan]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

haha, what a silly excuse for losing. unless you are truly disabled, running fast is far less important than shooting fast and accurately and transitioning fast. 

 

when i watch people who complain about running, i usually find that they do *everything* slowly, and just aren’t very good at shooting.

 

when i watch people who win matches, i see that i can outrun many of them, and many of them are carrying lots of extra weight, but they *all* shoot at a very high level.

 

Yeah, I agree, it's really hard to outrun 0.7 second draws, .11 splits, .15 transitions and 95+% Alphas.

 

Nolan

[IHAVEGAS]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

haha, what a silly excuse for losing. unless you are truly disabled, running fast is far less important than shooting fast and accurately and transitioning fast. 

 

Like many things it depends a great deal on who designs the stages, in this case it can also depend on the size of the shooting bays. I tend to agree with you on what I would call a well balanced match with a good test of the different shooting skills. There are some matches that are well known as track meet matches. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Like many things it depends a great deal on who designs the stages, in this case it can also depend on the size of the shooting bays. I tend to agree with you on what I would call a well balanced match with a good test of the different shooting skills. There are some matches that are well known as track meet matches. 

 

i have done outlaw stages with 100+ yards of running and still got beat by the fat gm. i can cover 100 yds a couple seconds faster, but he can shoot 40 pieces of steel a couple seconds faster.

[IHAVEGAS]

24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i have done outlaw stages with 100+ yards of running and still got beat by the fat gm. i can cover 100 yds a couple seconds faster, but he can shoot 40 pieces of steel a couple seconds faster.

 

Yea, and the fat gm likely looked at all the running and knew that he didn't have any chance against faster folks at his shooting skill level that he could normally beat or compete with.