Walther P99 (40 S&W)

[IPSC Supercop]

Yeah, yeah, I know this is the Glock forum, but I didn't know where else to put this and the Walther P99's closely resemble the Glocks.

Our PD just switched to these I was selected as one of the primary instructors for this transition. I got the gun about 3 weeks ago and put 400 rounds through it while dirtying and shitting it up, with dirty mags and all, and it never malfunctioned, not once. The triggers are kind of long, but smooth and not bad. It was very reliable and pretty accurate for a production gun.

I am a Walther armorer and know all the mechanics and functions of the gun. What I wanted to ask is, does anyone else have one of these or have any amount of time behind one where they can give me an idea on longevity, abuse, reliability and what they think of them?

[38supPat]

Not yet but I was considering getting one for production class...I was impressed by what I've seen so far.

Whats your opinion of them so far?

Pat

[Ron Ankeny]

I have shot the heck out of one in .40 (a friend's gun)and just as I was getting ready to buy one, along came another buddy with one in 9mm. I won't debate the .40 vs. 9mm thing for law enforcement, but for gaming in the production class there is no doubt that the 9mm is the way to go.

I have a friend who eats drinks and breaths Walther and the only problems that he says he has encountered is the lack of quality holsters and not being able to find reduced power springs. I do know that 160 PF ammo is as low as I could go in the .40 and still get it to work the action. You probably already know this and maybe you can comment on the springs.

As for longevity...my buddy only has about 7,000 rounds on his so I can't comment.

[Kevin Kline]

Pat and Ron,

So far, I kind of like it, FOR A DUTY GUN. Pat, if you are looking for one for Production, look at the Walther P99QA. QA is for quick action, it is a much shorter trigger travel and trigger reset, but I think they are still considered DA. It is the same pull weight and travel for every shot and they are pretty short. Besides the shorter travel, weight, pull, and reset, it is the same gun. For Production, I think this is much better than my duty gun.

My duty gun is the P990 in 40. It is DAO and the pull is 10lbs, it feels a little lighter though. The pull is the same weight and pretty smooth all the way through, it doesn't not stack or change the weight as you are pulling. You can dry fire the crap out of it to "marriage" the trigger parts together to make the trigger smoother, or at least that is what the armorer class says.

I wasn't sure about this gun in the beginning and our Training Unit (TU) did the testing on it, I, being one of the Firearms Instructors, did not have really any input. They shot 2000-3000 rounds, I believe, through it while putting it in mud, dirt, sand and throwing it around and it never malfunctioned. They also tested a Glock with it and they said the Glock failed a few times where the Walther did not.

The TU was kind of in a rough predicament. The PD wasn't going to spend hardly any money, they wanted to move up in caliber and quality and they had a crap load of older guns to hand in. Smith and Wesson came in and agreed to take back ALL the older guns, regardless of the pitiful rusted or used condition, and give them premium cost for the trade ins. The would also give us a sweet deal on the new Walthers and let us have them in 40 with night sights. Smith and Wesson does the distributing and/or importing for Walther here in the US and that is why Smith has their hands in this Walther project so much.

However, I would make SURE, if I bought one of these, I got the Walther gun complete and not the Smith and Wesson copy (SW 99). Smith has a bad habit of copying someone else's design almost to a tee, and somehow screwing it up so the gun isn't reliable. I don't know how they do it, but I've seen it happen. The only Smith and Wesson stuff I like or would depend on is the Performance Center stuff.

Any way, I shot the crap out of the Walther and beat the snot out of it. I ground it into the ground on officer down drills until you couldn't even see the grip, purposely dropped mags in the sand and dirt and stepped on them to push them into the sand more, bounced it around like a basketball and shot it from every position you can think of, upside down, sideways, weak hand, strong hand, prone while pushing on the ground and didn't have 1 single jam all day. That was kind of reassuring.

I also shot it from 50 yards freestyle standing. I shot a whole mag (12 rounds) and put them all into a 15 inch circle. Not bad accuracy for a production gun with a 10 lb trigger and about 2 inches of travel.

Oh, also, it is pretty light weight, has the same tenifer and polymer make up of the Glocks and has an ambi mag release. I like the feel of the grip better than the Glocks. The TU had asked us to pick ONE gun for use by everyone, taking into account the height, weight, male, female, hand size, strength, etc. To pick a gun versatile enough everyone could use and I have to say the Walther was up there on my list also, taking this into account. It is not my dream carry or duty gun, FOR ME, because what I would want would not be safe or efficient in the hands of a normal shooter, officer, or whatever (probably in the hands of an IPSC shooter it would though) but we weren't just thinking of ourselves, but of everyone and their individual attributes. Time will tell, but so far, I kind of like it.

[Kevin Kline]

Oh, Ron I forgot to tell you. The holsters we use for duty are the Safariland SSIII. Right now, the best carry or off duty holster for carry or concealment is the Fobus Roto Lock, either in a paddle or belt holster. The Fobus holsters I was a bit skeptical about in the beginning, but I have used one for my HK USP for almost three years and like it and the Roto Lock is even better.

IMO, the Roto Lock fixes the only things I didn't like about my other Fobus. The design of the Fobus paddle is the best I've seen. It is easy to get in and out of your pants, but stays put once you have it in your pants and on your side. It is mold injected so it has a little bit of retention and snaps into and out of place. There is almost no weight to it as it is space age thermo mold plastic. The Roto Lock now allows you to rotate the cant any way you want, in a 360 degree circle, FBI cant, or whatever. When you move the cant, it clicks into place and then you tighten the Allen screw back down to lock it into place.

I know, the Fobus doesn't look that great and looks cheesy, but they are a lot better now and I think the Roto Lock holsters are the way to go for carry or off duty concealment. You don't have to fight with the paddle to get it out of your pants anymore, real nice.

[Ron Ankeny]

Thanks for the info Kevin. Have you shot the QA? I am curious how it compares to a Glock trigger???

[Detlef]

hmmm... I thought S&W just *markets* the Walther in the U.S.? Are you saying they *manufacture* it here under license??? All Walther/Umarex guns are marketed and repaired by S&W in the U.S.

--Detlef

[John Thompson]

Smith makes the slides under license with Walther and they import Walther's frames.  Walther had to make his deal for two big reasons. The first being that Walther Intrarms distributor wasn't up to the task of moving a lot of guns and the big fact that the P99 has been on the market for at least five years now and no one really cared for it.   We shot the one Kevin was talking bout and no one liked the trigger.  I don't know about the new QA ones but I believe they were Smith's idea inorder to make people interested in the gun again.  And yes Smith managed to screw it up; the New Jersy State police just returned over 500 clones to Smith because of jams.  Smith needs that contract bad.  I love the smith I own but it is a Performance Center gun not a production gun

[Kevin Kline]

Detlef,

The way it was explained to us in the armorers class put on by SW, SW saw the Walther P99 at the shot show back in 97 or 98 or something. They liked it and started to work a deal with Walther that they would import the guns for Walther and then distribute them for Walther. In return for doing so, SW is allowed to make a copy of the Walther called the SW99.

Now, there is one thing I haven't had time to clarify w/ them. The frames (of the SW99) are supposed to still be made in Germany by Walther, but they are not the same frames. The dimensions are the same, but the trigger guard, grip and a few other things are definitely different. SW definitely makes the slides and barrels and other parts and assembles the guns (SW99) here in the US. The Walther is manufactured, made, assembled and everything else in Germany. From what the rep told us, they don't even take them out of the box if they are already sold to someone like wholesalers or agencies.

This is also why the Walther guns have tenifer as their finish on the barrel, slide, and other parts where the SW99 does not. The SW99 has some other type of finish. Apparently, the EPA will not allow a tenifer process to be done here in the US because of the way it has to be done and EPA has laws against it. Not sure of the specifics. Tenifer finished guns are allowed to be imported, but not have the tenifer finishes performed here.

John Thompson,

What did you guys not like about the triggers? I will say we had several guns that were the same model and everything else, but the triggers on some were OK where the others were pretty good. No one really had an answer for that. The triggers on our P99's is DAO and pretty good, for a duty gun that is DAO. They are about 8lbs, I measured them, and very smooth. They are smoother than SW revolver triggers and better in my opinion. They are just as long a pull as the revolvers though. Actually, the Walther triggers we have are smoother than any Glock I have tried.

The QA idea is Walther's, not SW's. The QA triggers are pretty nice though. They have a shorter travel than the Glocks and a short reset, not as short as the 1911 and about the same as a Glock or a hair more. So far, our Walther's have done very well. I agree I like the Performance Center stuff, but not that crazy with SW autos, I also like the revolvers.

From what we were told, SW already lost the New Jersey State Police (NJSP) deal. Had malfunctions and SW went out to NJ and couldn't fix them so NJ gave the guns back and wanted out.

[TDean]

I think Thomas Freeman shoots one in Production.

You might find him on http://www.pistolsmith.com/index.php

(Edited by TDean at 7:53 pm on Nov. 18, 2001)

[John Thompson]

Kevin,

When we shot the Walther five or six years ago we found the trigger to be long and mushy.  Maybe they have improved.  S&W, Sig, and Beretta (at least where I live) are dying a terible death in the LE market.  I don't think Beretta's new pistol is going to save them.  Glocks and H&K's are taking over.

[icer]

John---

It will be interesting to see what the new Beretta Vertec feels like.......it looks like they may have changed the grip angle, which would be too bad.......the last thing they need to do is make it feel and point like a Cougar.

The dovetailed front site would have been nice if they had done it 5 years ago........and it will be interesting to see if the accessory rail is Weaver compatible or their own bastard configuration.

After suffering through the Cougar and 9000s failures I have a hard time having much faith in the Beretta pistol design department.

[Kevin Kline]

Icer,

Have you shot the Beretta Elite II? I'm not much of a Beretta man myself, but I'll tell you, that was a pretty accurate and nice gun to shoot. The trigger is not bad at all and the accuracy was damn good. For a Production gun to shoot in Production class, I might have to really look at that if I was going to go that way.

John Thompson,

Have the Walther P99's been out that long. They told us in armorers class that it was first shown at the Shot Show in 97'.

[Kevin Kline]

John Thompson,

Are you sure you're not thinking of one of their other models? The triggers are not bad at all. They are long, I'll admit it, but they are pretty smooth and the feel and pull is the same for the entire trigger travel.

[John Thompson]

It could have been four years ago.  I distinctly remember getting to handle one though.  I was kind of excited about it but was then disapppointed.  At the time no one who handled it like the trigger.  The gun was probably a poor example.  But then no one wanted one until the past year.  Your place and the NewJersy State are the first I've heard that went to them.

I'm going to have to try the QA one.

(Edited by John Thompson at 4:43 pm on Nov. 22, 2001)

[Carlos]

Any update on the Walther Quick Action Trigger version of the P99? Is it Production approved and if so, where would one find it for sale?

Agree w/ comments about recent SW autos; My brother's Sigma is such a close Glock copy that the slide fits the rails on my Glock but God, what a piece of crap that Sigma is! Jams constantly and the trigger is shaped badly so that it seems to pull the whole gun downward upon each heavy pull. I would not bet on the SW99 being any better.

The real P99 w/ QA trigger however . . . anyone?

[Skalkaho Slim]

I bought one a couple of weeks ago and have only put about 200 rounds through it so far.  No problems at all as of yet.  I haven't found anything that I dislike about it yet.  Nice and light, easy to carry (except for the beforementioned lack of quality off-duty holsters).  I may be crazy, but I really like the DA feature of being able to have the striker down.

Toujours Pret!

Skalkaho Slim