Barrel hits… but still hits the target… how do you score it?

[Gunsbygiz]

Hits are Clear as day Alpha Delta… definitely larger than normal 9mm. Can see the hits on the barrel.

 

One barrel hit is grazed the other just barely went through but you can see where it melted over.

how do you score it? And if they or one counts how do you determine if it was the alpha or delta? 

 

[ColoradoNick]

If the barrel was painted and you can see the strike it's a mike. I believe the only reason it scores is if it was considered soft cover in the WSB.

[RadarTech]

30 minutes ago, ColoradoNick said:

If the barrel was painted and you can see the strike it's a mike. I believe the only reason it scores is if it was considered soft cover in the WSB.

If it was a full diameter hit you are correct..

if it a graze.. the score counts.. but if. You can’t tell which one is the full diameter and should be a Mike.. it is a reshoot …

and if it were to hit steel— it is a reshoot..

[Joe4d]

12 hours ago, RadarTech said:

If it was a full diameter hit you are correct..

if it a graze.. the score counts.. but if. You can’t tell which one is the full diameter and should be a Mike.. it is a reshoot …

and if it were to hit steel— it is a reshoot..

yep,
 if the RO isnt positive its a A mike, or a D mike from some other evidence or observation, reshoot.

[OPENB]

Walls and barrels have to be maintained to get fair scoring. Shot a recent local where the barrels were shot to hell by the time our squad got there. Some wide black masking tape to cover existing holes, then maintain hits per shooter makes it pretty easy.

[louu]

What the rule number? 

[perttime]

10 minutes ago, louu said:

What the rule number? 

9.1.6 (and sub paragraphs)

 

Edit

I see that 9.1.6.1 is different between USPSA and IPSC:

 

USPSA: "If it cannot be determined which hit(s) struck wholly within hard cover and subsequently struck another cardboard target, a reshoot shall be ordered."

 

IPSC: "If it cannot be determined which hit(s) on the scoring area of a scoring paper target or no-shoot are the result of shots fired through hard cover, the scoring paper target or noshoot will be scored by ignoring the applicable number of highest scoring hit(s)."

Edited September 18 by perttime

[barry]

1 of the many reasons I never use barrels on stages any more.

Make up mesh walls the approx size of 1 and 2 barrel stacks. Much safer and with cardboard straps stapled on easy to determine full diameter hits.

[davsco]

2 hours ago, barry said:

1 of the many reasons I never use barrels on stages any more.

 

yeah but you lose the really cool sound when the bullets whiz around in the barrel.

[IVC]

Barrels are hard cover unless declared otherwise in WSB. Rule 9.1.6.1 addresses full diameter hit through hard cover (not just barrels) and it states that (1) it doesn't count downrange for score or penalty, and (2) if it cannot be determined which shot went through hard cover, it's a reshoot.

 

So, in this case, looks like both hits were partial hits on hard cover and they both count for score, regardless of the size of the hole on the target. If I misunderstood, and the second shot was a full diameter hit *through* the barrel, then that hit doesn't count. The distinguishing characteristic of the rounds that pass through hard cover is the lack of grease ring on the scoring target. Note that this is neither required nor necessary for scoring a hit, it's just a good way to figure it out. In the end, if the score cannot be determined with certainty, it's a reshoot per 9.1.6.1. Otherwise, the hits will count based on whether they passed fully through the hard cover or not. 

[IVC]

Barrels should be patched or marked between competitors, like any other hard cover. Absent some way of marking dings, rule 9.1.6.1 will cause quite a bit of reshoots. 

[barry]

47 minutes ago, davsco said:

yeah but you lose the really cool sound when the bullets whiz around in the barrel.

And the danger of a bullet being spit back at you. I have seen it happen twice. One resulted in ro needing a full 38 super bullet removed from his triceps after entering his forearm as he held timer out in front of him. Traveled a good10 inches in his arm.

[Boomstick303]

53 minutes ago, IVC said:

Note that this is neither required nor necessary for scoring a hit, it's just a good way to figure it out. In the end

 

I actually wish ROs and competitors would stop using this vernacular of "Is there a grease ring"?  There is nothing in the rules about grease rings regarding hits through hard cover.  I have seen competitors and ROs intimate if there is any sort of grease ring that the hit is good.  That is not the case.  Can it help diagnose?  Sure, but I have seen plenty of ricochets that have zero grease ring. 

 

We had lots of barrels in our last match and heard this numerous times.  Some stages the hard cover was not maintained properly by prior squads; therefore, there were questions on scoring.  I saved someone from receiving a Mike because of this misunderstanding.  There were too many marks on the barrel to tell which hits were which, therefore a reshoot was required.  

 

[shred]

Yeah, everyone uses 9.5.5 for everything

 

Quote

Enlarged holes in cardboard targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.

Its very common that a bullet going through another target (NS) before hitting the target won't leave a grease ring, but the rules don't let you determine that.

 

[outerlimits]

7 hours ago, IVC said:

Barrels should be patched or marked between competitors, like any other hard cover. Absent some way of marking dings, rule 9.1.6.1 will cause quite a bit of reshoots. 

rio does it right.  they have blue barrels like everybody else, but every one of them is painted flat black.  the slightest ding mark on them shows up like crazy.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, outerlimits said:

rio does it right.  they have blue barrels like everybody else, but every one of them is painted flat black.  the slightest ding mark on them shows up like crazy.

Indeed. Lots of places do that. No mistaking a barrel hit for sure

[Schutzenmeister]

23 hours ago, shred said:

Yeah, everyone uses 9.5.5 for everything

 

Its very common that a bullet going through another target (NS) before hitting the target won't leave a grease ring, but the rules don't let you determine that.

 

No, they don't.  But they also do not prohibit it.  The various rules under 9.1 are consistent ... The RO must determine whether or not an accurate score can be determined.  If yes, score it.  If not, reshoot.  Under some circumstances the presence or absence of a grease mark can be used to help make an informed decision.

 

In the case of the 2 poppers as presented by the OP ... I suggest all review 9.1.5.4.  They both score.  The rule on scoring metal targets is they must be shot and overturn to score.  (I'm paraphrasing here.)

 

If it's been hit, and especially if it falls, whether by 1 shot or 10, I cannot with a straight face call a FTSA on either target.