r4ptor Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 (edited) Hi folks, We had an interesting discussion today. Given a CZ shadow 2 OR with the factory plate and a holosun 507comp. The plate sits flush with the slide and does not stick out of the sides of the slide. However the holosun is slightly wider than the slide. Could in this constellation the reddot be seen as a charging or racking handle and therefore the shooter be moved into open instead of production optics? Edited September 6, 2023 by r4ptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 No. It's a scope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 1 minute ago, r4ptor said: Hi folks, We had an interesting discussion today. Given a CZ shadow 2 OR with the factory plate and a holosun 507comp. The plate sits flush with the slide and does not stick out of the sides of the slide. However the holosun is slightly wider than the slide. Could in this constellation the Reddit be seen as a charging or racking handle and therefore the shooter be moved into open instead of production optics? Not even in MY mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4ptor Posted September 6, 2023 Author Share Posted September 6, 2023 Thought so, thanks. Another thing would be if the mounting plate is wider than the slide I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 32 minutes ago, r4ptor said: Thought so, thanks. Another thing would be if the mounting plate is wider than the slide I guess? There were optic mounts that had wings to use as a slide racker. That will get you into wide OPEN spaces. If it is just a plate, it is just a plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4ptor Posted September 6, 2023 Author Share Posted September 6, 2023 (edited) Got it, thanks. Just was curious since this did in fact happen to a buddy a while back at a lvl3 match. The first five or so stages were fine. At the next stage the RO told him he's moved to open since the plate sticks out 1mm or so and therefore is not flat with the slide. No wings, no serrations or so. Just s plate that sticks out left 0.5mm and right 0.5mm. And therefore can be identified as a racking device. That was a stage with 12 shots or so, starting loaded. So there wasn't even a need to reload and use the "racking plate". We were all shaking heads but he accepted it since he did not have any chance of winning anyway. Just a very bitchy RO, but well... Edited September 6, 2023 by r4ptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeilAndrew Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 That definitely would have been a good time to get the RM/MD involved. That's very BS. This is a racker: https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/Optics-Mounts/Mounts-Plates/Other/Accuracy-X-Multi-Sight-Optic-Plate-with-Racker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 Since you're measuring in millimeters, I'm guessing this is an ipsc match you're discussing. I don't know what the arbitration rules are there. In the USPSA I would have pulled out my hundo and said let's get after it. But I'm not real savvy on ipsc stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4ptor Posted September 6, 2023 Author Share Posted September 6, 2023 Sorry forgot to mention this important bit: yes we are talking about IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 The only place that addresses this issue is appendix D7.22. It states that the slide racking devices are prohibited, so under rule D7.21 it would be a move to open. The problem is that the term "slide racking" device is not defined in the glossary or elsewhere, so I call BS on any statement by the RO where he talks about some measurements and the optics extending from the slide. More importantly, it's the RM who must make the call per D7.21. Optics is not a slide racking device even if it can be used for that purpose. It is frustrating to have ROs reinterpret the rules on the spot and try to mess with the plain reading of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 4 minutes ago, r4ptor said: Sorry forgot to mention this important bit: yes we are talking about IPSC. Ooops, IPSC has slightly different rules, with most differences being in the gear setup, so it's best to look at the IPSC rule book and pull out the exact rules that deal with this issue. In USPSA it would be a very stretched interpretation to try to call a red dot a slide racker and get the RM onboard to support such a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 all optics are slide rackers hahahha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 IPSC rules just say that racking/cocking handles are prohibited. It would take some really creative interpretation of the rules to say that an optics plate that sticks out slightly is a racking handle. Appeal to RM, and if that fails, fork up for arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 On 9/6/2023 at 3:06 PM, Blackstone45 said: IPSC rules just say that racking/cocking handles are prohibited. It would take some really creative interpretation of the rules to say that an optics plate that sticks out slightly is a racking handle. Appeal to RM, and if that fails, fork up for arbitration. Based solely on what I've read here as to the description of the situation, I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 (edited) The only thing I've ever seen discussed (IPSC) as a racking device was a sight plate that had 'grip ridges' on it and was advertised as such. I'll see if I can find a pic. From the website. "Included on our design are cocking serrations to assist with unloaded starts. Very light weight." Edited September 9, 2023 by terrydoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 On 9/6/2023 at 10:53 PM, rowdyb said: all optics are slide rackers hahahha During last weekend's IPSC Match, I observed over a hundred competitors handling their pistols. A pretty significant number of Production Optics shooters used the optic itself for racking the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4ptor Posted September 11, 2023 Author Share Posted September 11, 2023 On 9/9/2023 at 9:38 AM, terrydoc said: The only thing I've ever seen discussed (IPSC) as a racking device was a sight plate that had 'grip ridges' on it and was advertised as such. I'll see if I can find a pic. Yeah, this one is an easy case. However the plate in question with my buddy was something like that(not exactly that model, but basically a dovetail reddot mount without something sticking out by design) https://benstoegerproshop.com/czc-cz-shadow-2-sp-01-multi-optic-red-dot-sight-base-cut-by-cz-custom/ And in that case, this isn't even close to a "racking handle". So yeah, thanks for all the replies, I think we can agree that calling out somebody by a normal plate is kind of dumb and reddots are racking devices on steroids by design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim vaughan Posted September 11, 2023 Share Posted September 11, 2023 This is definitely a case of "show me the rule please". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 To be honest I don't know what the outcome was, I tuned out once I saw the plate. But don't put yourself in a position that "that guy" could ruin your match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murzikrv Posted September 29, 2023 Share Posted September 29, 2023 Very strange decision of RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted December 24, 2023 Share Posted December 24, 2023 On 9/28/2023 at 11:15 PM, Murzikrv said: Very strange decision of RO. unfortunately, there are some ROs out there that are looking for anything to ding a shooter for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 It wasn't due to not fitting a box as in CO? Or whatever the IPSC name is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4ptor Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 IPSC has no box for production/production optics. Only has to be on the production list, follow the allowed modification and only have 15 bang tubes in the mag at beep. I think I didn't specify he was starting in production optics, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonasAberg Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 In the European Handgun Championships in Greece, serrations on the plate was interpreted as a "slide racker". I know at least one shooter who chose to remove them with a file. After that - good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lroy Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 What if you put grip tape on your dot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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