RJH Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Is there any kind of three guns scoring that is somewhere between time plus and hit Factor? Basically something that works like time plus, but instead of having a set 100 points per stage where all stages are equal, having something more along the lines of hit Factor total total stage points are based on the amount of targets in the stage. While I like time plus better than straight time, I've never liked it giving equal points to all stages. One of our local guys was doing pretty good at multi-gun Nationals and had a miss on one of the 12 second stages and it cost him about 50 points, that miss on a 70 second stage would had way less penalty attached to it. He still finished solid, but I do think there's a hole in time plus scoring. I realize that's what everyone signs up to do, it just seems way less correct to me than hit Factor. I know people don't like hit factor for three gun because it's a little slower to score, that's why I'm wondering if there's some version in between the 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 I think Leograndis has a simplified hit factor system for his PCSL league. Maybe. I can't remember, been a while since I looked into it. He definitely has a very unique target. That said, the speed shoot stages at 3G Nats were specifically designed that way according to the MD. You either hero or zero, not much in between, and they saved them for the last day to put the pressure on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) PCSL scoring is Hit Factor scoring and the big difference with Max's PCSL targets is the Kilo zone, which is a zone in the head box that counts for 2A with one shot in the Kilo zone. The PCSL targets are noticeably smaller on the whole when compared to normal USPSA targets. I dislike time plus scoring for two reasons. The reason @RJH mentioned, and I feel two hits anywhere, rewards inaccurate shooters. While I get that 3 Gun is a completely different game, I too feel something is being left on the table in regards to scoring. Edited July 24 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidSeavey Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 while still time plus, UML rules generally use the fastest shooter's time = stage points, so if someone burns it down it's worth less overall. but perhaps that applies too much weight to the longer stages instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 I think time plus is fine, but make the stages worth 5 or 10 points per target. Maybe make the high value targets worth 20 ot something, idk. Would still be simple scoring with counting misses/ftn just like now, but a 70 round stage would be worth 700 points and a 30 round stage would be worth 300, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Finally watched some videos of these "speed shoot" stages. Should've been worth zero points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 On 7/24/2023 at 9:27 AM, Boomstick303 said: I dislike time plus scoring for two reasons. The reason @RJH mentioned, and I feel two hits anywhere, rewards inaccurate shooters. Maybe on paper, but 3 gun is the only sport I'm aware of with 200 yard pistol shots, forests of 4"x6" steel at 20 yards obscured by barrels, death stars, offhand mini poppers at 100 yards etc. I see way more of that stuff these days than I do wide open hoser paper, and it's a nice change of pace to see some targets that let you step on the gas. Somewhere along the line a bunch of MD's got confused on the difference between challenging for everyone stages and just plain hard to accomplish stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 48 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said: Finally watched some videos of these "speed shoot" stages. Should've been worth zero points. I might have just saw the same video as you did. And I agree. I get the idea of a speed shoot, but those stages were crap. So maybe time plus the way it is now is not is not so much of an issue as much as setting balanced stages would be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 46 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said: Maybe on paper, but 3 gun is the only sport I'm aware of with 200 yard pistol shots, forests of 4"x6" steel at 20 yards obscured by barrels, death stars, offhand mini poppers at 100 yards etc. I see way more of that stuff these days than I do wide open hoser paper, and it's a nice change of pace to see some targets that let you step on the gas. Somewhere along the line a bunch of MD's got confused on the difference between challenging for everyone stages and just plain hard to accomplish stages. I agree again here. I've never seen a hundred plus yard shot at a USPSA match. Hell I've only seen one or two 50 yard shots at a USPSA match in almost 20 years of shooting USPSA. Hosefest three gun matches are definitely a thing of the past in my area. In fact, three gun might need a little more hose-festiveness brought back. I see way more people that can't even finish a stage then I do people hosing things without aiming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) 9 hours ago, TonytheTiger said: Maybe on paper, but 3 gun is the only sport I'm aware of with 200 yard pistol shots, forests of 4"x6" steel at 20 yards obscured by barrels, death stars, offhand mini poppers at 100 yards etc. I see way more of that stuff these days than I do wide open hoser paper, and it's a nice change of pace to see some targets that let you step on the gas. Somewhere along the line a bunch of MD's got confused on the difference between challenging for everyone stages and just plain hard to accomplish stages. I can agree with this, but I personally do have limited experience in 3 Gun. We do have limited range space for most of our local matches. I do intend to get to more, and diverse matches out of state that many rave about that I have yet been able to attend. I will say a 200 yd pistol shot does test accuracy, hahaha. Curious what is the hold on that target? Edited July 26 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 8 hours ago, RJH said: So maybe time plus the way it is now is not is not so much of an issue as much as setting balanced stages would be an issue. Funny thing, is I am struggling with this a bit myself. I run three 2 Gun matches a year at our range, and I am working on match flow and stage equity right now for a match this weekend. I use the PCSL rule set, so it is hit factor scoring, but I noted a couple of the stages are considerably worth less than the others score wise. Due to the amount of long rifle shots and positions etc, to keep match flow I think it will be required that those stages are lower compared to the other stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Nearly every USPSA major had 50 yard shots & 50 yard standards (standing/kneeling/prone) 25 years ago. Now they don't. There's probably a lesson there. A 200 yard pistol shot is just luck and area-bombardment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 2 minutes ago, shred said: A 200 yard pistol shot is just luck and area-bombardment. LMAO. That is what I was thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Funny thing, is I am struggling with this a bit myself. I run three 2 Gun matches a year at our range, and I am working on match flow and stage equity right now for a match this weekend. I use the PCSL rule set, so it is hit factor scoring, but I noted a couple of the stages are considerably worth less than the others score wise. Due to the amount of long rifle shots and positions etc, to keep match flow I think it will be required that those stages are lower compared to the other stages. Right. It sounds like what you're running into is something where time plus scoring the way it is might actually be a little bit better. With long range rifle, a lot of times even if the target count is lower the difficulty can be higher. I don't know what the perfect answer is. I haven't messed with time plus in practice score for setting up matches in years, but maybe there's a time plus setting where you can adjust the points for each stage accordingly to their difficulty, IDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said: LMAO. That is what I was thinking. 200 is way out there, but 100 to 125 yard pistol shot is really not that difficult. Especially with a red dot. I don't know that I've ever seen a 200 yard shot in a match here, but 50 is not entirely uncommon in three gun. And in our area something like a 30-yard plate rack seems to be the norm LOL. But most of that is judged off of the last remaining three gun match in the area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 1 minute ago, RJH said: but 100 to 125 yard pistol shot is really not that difficult. I have shot these and did think it was not that big of deal. It was on C zone steel, so I do not know what kind of target size for these type of pistol shots is the norm. I just attended a USPSA match where there was an option to take 75 yard shots on 4 un obstructed USPSA targets. I need to start working on that a bit to understand some holds etc, to be able to shoot shots like that more consistent. Sounds like it would be a good idea for some 3 Gun matches as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 28 minutes ago, shred said: A 200 yard pistol shot is just luck and area-bombardment. Nope. Lot's of first round hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 52 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: I will say a 200 yd pistol shot does test accuracy, hahaha. Curious what is the hold on that target? I use a modified sight picture for those shots. Top of rear sight level with bottom of front sight then dead hold. Otherwise I have to hold around 1'-2' above the head on a full silhouette, which is hard to judge when you obscure the target with the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 3 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said: Nope. Lot's of first round hits. What is the size of the target and what is your hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Just now, TonytheTiger said: which is hard to judge when you obscure the target with the front sight. That is what I was curious about is obscuring the target with the sight/gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 If you're old school, the way Tony is describing shooting at 200 yards is how Elmer Keith did it way back in the day. I've made some far pistol shots doing that exact thing. We have a 24-in plate we shoot at a touch over 200 yards, but that's not in a match that's just for fun. I do think around 125 is the furthest I've shot in a match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) 7 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: What is the size of the target and what is your hold? The times I've seen this stuff it's always a full sized silhouette or a big giant steel challenge looking plate, roughly the size of a silhouette without a head. Using the sight picture described above I just try to hold in the top half of the target. I can't resolve a hold any finer than that with my eyesight. Also, I'm not claiming I've got lots of first round hits, a few but not lots, I've witnessed as an RO many competent shooters able to get first round hits. 200 yards is the extreme end of things, but 80-120 yard targets that size for pistol or shotgun slug aren't that uncommon. Edited July 26 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 17 hours ago, RJH said: I might have just saw the same video as you did. And I agree. I get the idea of a speed shoot, but those stages were crap. I actually spent all weekend being bummed I wasn't able to attend the match. Once I saw those stage videos I was significantly less bummed. To pay a major match fee, travel, miss work and stay another night in a hotel to have 1/3 of the stages look like a Steel Challenge MD got turned loose would've been very frustrating. If one person can set up a stage in 15 minutes it doesn't belong in a major. 17 hours ago, RJH said: I agree again here. I've never seen a hundred plus yard shot at a USPSA match. Hell I've only seen one or two 50 yard shots at a USPSA match in almost 20 years of shooting USPSA. Hosefest three gun matches are definitely a thing of the past in my area. In fact, three gun might need a little more hose-festiveness brought back. I see way more people that can't even finish a stage then I do people hosing things without aiming. Agreed. Last month I shot and RO'd a relatively big club match. It was basically a pistol bullseye match with no options or ability to plan a stage outside of the very specific WSB's. As a fairly experienced shooter it was super boring to run here, aim really hard at the seven 22 yard small steel, run over there, repeat. But as an RO that ran a ton of new guys it was very discouraging. I worry I'll never see them come back. To watch ten guys in a row time out halfway through five stages in a row at almost the same time they ran their four 17 round magazines dry on 16 targets was not fun. Stages should at least be possible for newer people to feel like they aren't getting kicked in the dick the whole day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 Ok, this thread is useless without links to said videos of crappy stages so I can feel better about our local stages! Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 1 hour ago, Nolan said: Ok, this thread is useless without links to said videos of crappy stages so I can feel better about our local stages! Nolan I got you. https://youtu.be/zNrIMsyHvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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