NROI question of the month on Virginia Count, stage procedure, and penalties

[Rookie]

If they change the word "only" in the WSB, to "roughly", then I could begin to see NROI side of the argument.

[waktasz]

Welcome to USPSA where the rules don't mean anything and the points don't matter

[vluc]

New update issued, no change. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

From the response to clear things up. 
3-3-3 reload 1-1-1 is good. 
If this is how Virgina stages are to be ,  should we not change how we word the stage. 
by saying engage t1-t3 with two rounds only. This is just an suggestion on how to shoot the stage. 
I need to do some thinking. 
But maybe you can game some Virgina stages/classifiers. 

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, lroy said:

http://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/06-03.pdf

 

So for this Classifier, it's legal to shoot 4 on each target, reload and put one on each?

 

It would be the same amount of shots total. If the word only doesn't mean anything, whats the penalty?

According to the NROI that is acceptable. 

[waktasz]

50 minutes ago, vluc said:

New update issued, no change. 

 

Further bulls#!t on their part. But good news, it doesn't mean anything

 

keep in mind that this blog and the discussions and questions posed here DO NOT represent any official rulings or interpretations.

[waktasz]

My message to NROI
 

Quote

I see 10.2.2.1 mentioned a lot when discussing this month's question of the month, but that rule (like the extra shots rule) doesn't apply in this case because 12 shots were still fired. Everyone in the world except the people at NROI agree this should be a penalty, and honestly it ruins the sport to come to this conclusion that we can now shoot Virginia count stages like El Prez is basically any nonsensical order (3,3,3 reload, 1,1,1 or 1,2,3 reload, 3,2,1) we want. This one is almost as bad as saying shooting a classifier array from the wrong box isn't a per shot penalty. Myself and many others I've spoken to in person have utterly lost confidence in NROI to make logical rulings based on these two most recent issues. 

 

[vluc]

20 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Further bulls#!t on their part. But good news, it doesn't mean anything

 

keep in mind that this blog and the discussions and questions posed here DO NOT represent any official rulings or interpretations.

Yep, just brain exercises 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Like I said I’m giving a extra shot on the first engagement and then bumping it up to the RM. 

so was this wording the whole time a mere suggestion of how the stage should be shot?? 
not required to be shot. 
Can’t help but ask why we our giving advise to the shooter in the description of the stage ? 
The wording of the stage description must change then. 
 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I’m just brainstorming here. 
“the camels foot”

is a 20 round course of fire  

there are nine USPSA targets ,two poppers.
P1 activates a swinger that should only be engaged from last shooting position. 

 

this is a Obscure lean  behind a wall and barrel. 
But swinger is totally visible from other shooting locations “ easy shots. 
do you have to take the swinger from the last position ?

maybe I’m confusing myself. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter

[broadside72]

4 hours ago, lroy said:

http://www.classifiercalc.com/classifier_diagrams/06-03.pdf

 

So for this Classifier, it's legal to shoot 4 on each target, reload and put one on each?

 

It would be the same amount of shots total. If the word only doesn't mean anything, whats the penalty?

Even though it says you can engage in any order NROI would probably say two penalties (one in each string) each under 10.2.2 since you didn't correctly engage the targets before/after the reloads per the WSB. That seems to be how they are defending the no penalty call for this QOTM

 

[lroy]

19 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Even though it says you can engage in any order NROI would probably say two penalties (one in each string) each under 10.2.2 since you didn't correctly engage the targets before/after the reloads per the WSB. That seems to be how they are defending the no penalty call for this QOTM

 

 

why? you cant use that rule for the amount of shots fired.

 

They stated in this answer that the word only means nothing. The total amount of rounds would still be 10.

[broadside72]

12 minutes ago, lroy said:

 

why? you cant use that rule for the amount of shots fired.

 

They stated in this answer that the word only means nothing. The total amount of rounds would still be 10.

Because the WSB says engage one target, reload, then engage the other target. You didn't follow that procedure because you engaged both before and both after the reload. Nothing to do with the 10.2.2..1 exception of number of shots, this is purely 10.2.2 not following the procedure of one target, reload, other target.

It's also supported by basically a derivative of this comment from the QOTM, which is saying that what targets you engage before/after the reload matters.

Quote

So the competitor took an extra shot at T3 on the first engagement, probably to make up a miss, before the mandatory reload. As a result, each target was engaged before the mandatory reload was made, and engaged again after the reload. No penalty for failing to make the mandatory reload at the right time. 

 

[lroy]

Ohhh you're right. I misread. It's the engagements that matter. My mistake.

[Climbhard]

Ahh. So “shoot the targets with only two shots each and then reload“ is only a guideline. Got it.  That’s dumber than ****

[Part_time_redneck]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:13 PM, waktasz said:

 

Further bulls#!t on their part. But good news, it doesn't mean anything

 

keep in mind that this blog and the discussions and questions posed here DO NOT represent any official rulings or interpretations.

 

Please disperse! Move along people, nothing to see here. 

[waktasz]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:27 PM, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

I’m just brainstorming here. 
“the camels foot”

is a 20 round course of fire  

there are nine USPSA targets ,two poppers.
P1 activates a swinger that should only be engaged from last shooting position. 

 

this is a Obscure lean  behind a wall and barrel. 
But swinger is totally visible from other shooting locations “ easy shots. 
do you have to take the swinger from the last position ?

maybe I’m confusing myself. 

 

Definitely not. If it's available shoot it. 

[IVC]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:23 PM, waktasz said:

4-4-4 reload is no good because it says engage the targets, reload then engage the targets. You have to shoot at least one shot to Engage a target, per the rulebook. So 3-3-3-r-1-1-1 would work

 

Even though I agreed with you a few days back, I'm actually rethinking this. "Engage targets" is a generic phrase, where the penalty is assessed under the FTSAT (failure to shoot at a/the target), and is covered only in 9.5.7 as far as I can tell (I did keyword search and looked up in the index). The rule says: 

 

---------------------

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

---------------------

 

If we are to play games with the VC extra shots being per COF and ignore there is a mandatory reload in between (NROI explanation), the wording of 9.5.7 also only specifies "in a course of fire." So, if I do 4-4-4-reload, there is no penalty per 9.5.7 since the literal wording is per COF, not per substring (or whatever we call it). I don't see another way to get a FTSAT. 

 

More importantly, if 9.5.7 doesn't work and we go back to 10.2.2 which would penalize non-compliance with WSB in 4-4-4-reload, I'm more than happy to get a "per shot" procedural for non-compliance since I didn't fire any shots after the non-compliance - I'll take 0 x (-10). And if the NROI explanation stands, I can't get a procedural for firing too many shots prior to the reload, so I end up without procedurals. 

 

Thoughts? 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Does only mean only or a suggestion of one possible option to proceed ?

[vluc]

Just now, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Does only mean only or a suggestion of one possible option to proceed ?

Lol, yes,apparently, 

[MrPCHead]

This all seems like a brilliant distraction. 

[broadside72]

On 2/12/2023 at 10:55 AM, IVC said:

Even though I agreed with you a few days back, I'm actually rethinking this. "Engage targets" is a generic phrase, where the penalty is assessed under the FTSAT (failure to shoot at a/the target), and is covered only in 9.5.7 as far as I can tell (I did keyword search and looked up in the index). The rule says: 

 

---------------------

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

---------------------

 

If we are to play games with the VC extra shots being per COF and ignore there is a mandatory reload in between (NROI explanation), the wording of 9.5.7 also only specifies "in a course of fire." So, if I do 4-4-4-reload, there is no penalty per 9.5.7 since the literal wording is per COF, not per substring (or whatever we call it). I don't see another way to get a FTSAT. 

 

More importantly, if 9.5.7 doesn't work and we go back to 10.2.2 which would penalize non-compliance with WSB in 4-4-4-reload, I'm more than happy to get a "per shot" procedural for non-compliance since I didn't fire any shots after the non-compliance - I'll take 0 x (-10). And if the NROI explanation stands, I can't get a procedural for firing too many shots prior to the reload, so I end up without procedurals. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

4-4-4-reload is not allowed without penalty

 

You didn't engage the targets after the reload per the WSB requirements. So you can be penalized under 10.2.2. I would also think that its 6 penalties because of the significant advantage of the time savings and lack of transitions. This is not about the incorrect number of shots, but about there being no shots at all after the reload, thus not engaging.

It can also be considered stacking instead since you shot more rounds than required at a target prior to the reload while shooting fewer at a target after (the engage, reload, engage again requirement), so again 6 penalties.

I think the blog post decision is just "clarifying" for us regular folk that "only" does not matter in terms of WSB stage procedures. I can see why they decided it's no penalty IF the word "only" can be ignored under 10.2.2./10.2.2.1 if total shots/hits/stacking penalties are correctly applied

So 3-3-3-R-1-1-1 or 1-2-3-R-3-2-1 is okay here, but 4-4-4-R is not.

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Anybody bothered that the words in the WSB are not without interpretation now. 
Why can’t I say a certain target can only be shot from a certain shooting position?
 if only doesn’t mean only. 

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Anybody bothered that the words in the WSB are not without interpretation now. 
Why can’t I say a certain target can only be shot from a certain shooting position?
 if only doesn’t mean only. 

 

 

It's not what you said, it's what I feel you said

[Joe4d]

20 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Anybody bothered that the words in the WSB are not without interpretation now. 
Why can’t I say a certain target can only be shot from a certain shooting position?
 if only doesn’t mean only. 

Depends on round count,,,, ummm yeh why does that matter? or level,,, yeh can see that for a bit.