Ideal power factor

[lroy]

I understand the point of major in limited, where there is an actual trade off, but for open it just seems harsh on the gun for no reason.

 

If you were king for a day and could set the power factor in open to anything and still have major scoring, what would be the number?

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

My gun runs just fine at 175 pf.    

[Amra86]

Major open shoots flatter and faster than minor open. I would still shoot major in my open gun even if scoring was the same.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

I’ll say this.  If major was lowered to some arbitrary number like say 150 pf.   I’d probably experiment with some 115 grain loads in my 9major gun. But 124s run just fine as is.  I see no reason to come up with a different number.  

[CHA-LEE]

If I had the Thanos Infinity Gauntlet and could snap my fingers to change USPSA Power Factor, I would eliminate minimum power factor all together. Minimum Caliber is 9mm and steel must fall to score. Everyone gets scored Minor. If you want to risk running sub 125PF ammo on steel then don't whine when it doesn't go down and eat the Mike. Open guns would last at least 3x longer if they were fed minor PF ammo.

[BritinUSA]

I think we should keep Major and Minor; My change would be to:

• Minimum calibre lowered from .40 to .355
• Minimum bullet weight either 135grn or 147grn
• Power Factor around 140-145

 

I think this is essentially +P ammo. It's available off the shelf and widely available.

[Sinister4]

IMHO there is a lot to be said for just scoring minor and  every stage has at least 1 steel, but i can then see a lot of "check the steel it did not fall"  stuff slowing up a match. I also think if we have major it really should be 175 or more and no 9mm major, you want major shoot .40, 10mm, .45 or .38 super etc   other option is just leave everything as it is and quit screwing with stuff

[J_Allen]

I like major and minor scoring in USPSA, but you could keep them without necessarily tying it to power factor.

 

For example, if you tied scoring differences to divisions, then Open could all be scored major (regardless of PF), and CO could all be scored minor. The risk/reward equation would be slightly different between them.

 

You could also tie scoring differences to capacity - could have a universal low cap irons division with 8 shot major and 10 shot minor. You could literally include every type of gun in this division: single stack, revolver, glock, etc. If you declare major then you get 8 shots, and if you declare minor you get 10. Doesn’t matter caliber, only capacity.
 

Just trying to make the point that major/minor scoring and PF are distinct ideas, currently married to one another, but wouldn’t have to be.

 

[zzt]

Open major is not hard on the gun if it is set up properly.  I shoot 9mm 115 JHPs at 175 PF for no other reason than my gun runs better with that load.  With the powder I use it does not quite reach SAAMI +P pressure levels.

 

Open guns break because the slides are lightened too much and in the wrong places.  The slides have holes cut in them.  The recoil spring is too light.  I expect my Open guns will last longer than I will be able to shoot them.

 

I'm happy with the 165 PF rule.  If power levels were to be set higher than I'd feel comfortable with in 9mm, I'd go back to shooting 40sw Open.  Waaaaay better than 9mm or 38S.  In fact, if anyone made a one piece barrel/comp in 40SW, I'd still be shooting 40 Open today. 

[donnyglock]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Open major is not hard on the gun if it is set up properly.  I shoot 9mm 115 JHPs at 175 PF for no other reason than my gun runs better with that load.  With the powder I use it does not quite reach SAAMI +P pressure levels.

 

Open guns break because the slides are lightened too much and in the wrong places.  The slides have holes cut in them.  The recoil spring is too light.  I expect my Open guns will last longer than I will be able to shoot them.

 

I'm happy with the 165 PF rule.  If power levels were to be set higher than I'd feel comfortable with in 9mm, I'd go back to shooting 40sw Open.  Waaaaay better than 9mm or 38S.  In fact, if anyone made a one piece barrel/comp in 40SW, I'd still be shooting 40 Open today. 

There is no getting around open major is harder on a gun than minor. 

[ltdmstr]

If you're shooting minor, what's the point of even having a comp?  First, there's so little recoil to start with, I don't see any benefit in terms of splits, tracking, etc.  Second, how much will a lower pressure/slower velocity load work the comp anyway?  If it does anything, it's probably going to be pretty minimal.  Third, we basically have open minor already.  It's called Carry Optics.  Only difference is the dot is on the slide instead of the frame.

[Joe4d]

Seems reports I am reading saying a compensator helps,, People are putting them on .22's even on 22 carbines , I would think they are doing something.
I would think the same formula would work with 9 minor,,, lighter bullets in the 90-100 gr area with slower powders...
We shall see I am shopping for a factory compensated or threaded slide ride style striker 9mm probably shoot it in Open SC maybe USPSA if I decide to check out a match this spring

[lroy]

14 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

If you're shooting minor, what's the point of even having a comp?  First, there's so little recoil to start with, I don't see any benefit in terms of splits, tracking, etc.  Second, how much will a lower pressure/slower velocity load work the comp anyway?  If it does anything, it's probably going to be pretty minimal.  Third, we basically have open minor already.  It's called Carry Optics.  Only difference is the dot is on the slide instead of the frame.

 

Well, what's the point of 165+ in open? The dot moves even less than minor and it beats up the gun.

 

Currently, open guns others run flatter with hotter ammo, but only because they are built to do so in order to reach major. 

 

In this hypothetical, wouldn't you be able to have a gun run just as flat with lower pressure rounds (I'm not saying sub minor, but enough to work a comp optimally), if you designed the guns differently?

Edited January 29, 2023 by lroy

[zzt]

14 hours ago, donnyglock said:

There is no getting around open major is harder on a gun than minor. 

 

I hear that a lot.  If we are talking about the barrel, then yes, I agree.  A 115 JHP ripping down the barrel at 1520fps is going show increased heat and wear over the same at 1250fps.  I don't see the slide taking a harder hit with major, because they are sprung differently.  So, sprung properly, slide velocity should be the same.  Wear should be the same.  With my new batch of Open guns, the oldest only has about 35k major rounds through it.  Maybe that's not enough to see what you mean.  You build Open guns, so tell me why you say that.

 

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, lroy said:

 

Well, what's the point of 165+ in open? The dot moves even less than minor and it beats up the gun.

 

Currently, open guns others run flatter with hotter ammo, but only because they are built to do so in order to reach major. 

 

In this hypothetical, wouldn't you be able to have a gun run just as flat with lower pressure rounds (I'm not saying sub minor, but enough to work a comp optimally), if you designed the guns differently?

was kinda the point of open.. Just create a standard to meet and let the tinkerers figure it out. The entire reason open major guns run flat is people figured out how to do that.. Better comps, better powders,, getting it to work in 9mm sized cases,,  alot of that innovation filters down to production level guns.
Without that experimenting we'd still all be shooting Smith revolvers and GI spec 1911's

 

[sc68cal]

IPSC's 160 PF seems to be the most reasonable option. Less harsh on the guns, but still meaningfully more powerful than white box 9mm

[donnyglock]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I hear that a lot.  If we are talking about the barrel, then yes, I agree.  A 115 JHP ripping down the barrel at 1520fps is going show increased heat and wear over the same at 1250fps.  I don't see the slide taking a harder hit with major, because they are sprung differently.  So, sprung properly, slide velocity should be the same.  Wear should be the same.  With my new batch of Open guns, the oldest only has about 35k major rounds through it.  Maybe that's not enough to see what you mean.  You build Open guns, so tell me why you say that.

 

 

I say that because it’s true. Far more cracked slides in open than any other division. It’s harder on not just the barrel. If you look at the where frames have been beefed up over the old style 2011 frames. There was a reason for that as well. 
 The enemy to steel is heat and pressure. Major makes a lot more of both. Reloading practices come into play as well obviously.  
 

Edited January 29, 2023 by donnyglock

[BritinUSA]

Compensator design would change quite a bit of PF was lowered below 160. 

[Joe4d]

well if 9mm guns are getting beat up and slides cracking too bad so sad,,, Major was designed around 45 acp regular old ball ammo

 

[lroy]

6 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Major was designed around 45 acp regular old ball ammo

 

 

Ah right. The most popular cartridge in open. Lol

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, lroy said:

 

Ah right. The most popular cartridge in open. Lol

doesnt change facts,,
MAjor was the 45 ball ammo Americans shot,, Minor was the 9mm ball the rest of the world shot.
Major in a 45 is pretty mild pressure..  Open being Open though folks look for an edge,, so we have various 9mm/38 to gain a capacity advantage,,, which of course comes with a down side of wear, tear and breakage .
Any one crying for a rule change because their 9mm breaks needs to suck it up or go shoot a 40, 45 or 10mm,

[rishii]

Yep major was based on the old 45 ball round and minor on 38special 158 RNL, and my first comp gun was in 45, and major/minor scoring was designed to reward shooting a more powerful gun.

my take, leave the PF alone, there’s nothing stopping you from shooting 9mm minor in open or any other of the race divisions and we’ve had this discussion before.  Major 9 in limited and many other variations of it

if you want shoot something with no recoil to ruin you shot, there’s always cowboy where I hear they chrono to check if the ammo meets a minimum velocity 

[zzt]

4 hours ago, rishii said:

if you want shoot something with no recoil to ruin you shot, there’s always cowboy where I hear they chrono to check if the ammo meets a minimum velocity 

 

No they don't.  They only holler if they can run down range faster than your bullet.

[rishii]

Per the SASS HANDBOOK

minimum PF 60

minimum velocity 400 FPS 

[motosapiens]

On 1/28/2023 at 4:26 PM, donnyglock said:

There is no getting around open major is harder on a gun than minor. 

is it harder because of the incredible pressures and intimidating power? or is it just because everyone is using ultra-light slides and 7 lb recoil springs and otherwise seeking bleeding-edge performance?

 

Major doesn't seem all that hard on your average limited guns. Seems to me talk about reducing power factor makes as much sense as reducing speed in F1 so the engines will last longer (and so girls and poofs can drive the cars without being skeered).