Boomstick303 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Just now, MikeBurgess said: I have at times in my time here been a competitor, but that was short lived, I spent several years playing, took it seriously for about 2 and went back to playing. I can see what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Bdh821 said: I’m all setup! Me too. FWIW, I bought this as a range toy before LO was announced. But, now that it's a thing, might as well give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superkaratemonkeyfighter Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 I think the sport grows with the competitors spreading the word. When it comes to the future I always go back to whats the Vision of the people leading the sport / elected officials. some people want to drive sports in a certain direction and some are fine with the sport maintaining. not all growth is good or necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superkaratemonkeyfighter Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 The sport can be both. A group of buddies that go shoot because they love guns and beating there friends for bragging rights. And people that want to get sponsored and win nationals. I think it is both now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: I wish we would but 90% of those playing at this sport think they are competing, but would actually benefit from the realization that for them its play. 10 minutes ago, RJH said: I'm going to go with 97% of us are playing, whether we want to be or not You guys are talking about contending, the way I see it, which is a different beast from competing. You don't need to be in the conversation for match wins to compete; all you need to do is take competition seriously. Competition vs. play is largely down to state of mind. In high school, I was never in contention to win events in track or cross-country, but I wasn't there to play for fun, either. Nowadays, when I choose to spend a day outdoors golfing instead of at the range, I recognize that it is pure play, not a serious competitive outlet for me but something I find enjoyable. I'm not in contention in either of those pursuits, but one is nevertheless a competitive pursuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) (double tap) Edited January 11, 2023 by Fishbreath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, Fishbreath said: You guys are talking about contending, the way I see it, which is a different beast from competing. You don't need to be in the conversation for match wins to compete; all you need to do is take competition seriously. Competition vs. play is largely down to state of mind. In high school, I was never in contention to win events in track or cross-country, but I wasn't there to play for fun, either. Nowadays, when I choose to spend a day outdoors golfing instead of at the range, I recognize that it is pure play, not a serious competitive outlet for me but something I find enjoyable. I'm not in contention in either of those pursuits, but one is nevertheless a competitive pursuit. Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 18 minutes ago, Fishbreath said: You guys are talking about contending, the way I see it, which is a different beast from competing. You don't need to be in the conversation for match wins to compete; all you need to do is take competition seriously. Competition vs. play is largely down to state of mind. In high school, I was never in contention to win events in track or cross-country, but I wasn't there to play for fun, either. Nowadays, when I choose to spend a day outdoors golfing instead of at the range, I recognize that it is pure play, not a serious competitive outlet for me but something I find enjoyable. I'm not in contention in either of those pursuits, but one is nevertheless a competitive pursuit. This I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darqusoull13 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 46 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: True but the chances of someone sticking around long enough to get good drop if they can't use the gun they like. That's not even close to the reality. Almost anything can be used in Open. People stick around or not based on the community. Why isn't USPSA focused on building the community Nationally instead of pandering to companies trying to influence the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCB Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) Couldn’t they just get rid of CO entirely? Have Production / Production Optics with a 15 round max (minor only) & Limited (major / minor) / Limited Optics (major / minor or just minor only?) with a 140mm magazine and all the other current Limited rules. Open for race guns and Single Stack for true Americans who like to do reloads… And I guess Revo for…those Revo people. Edited January 11, 2023 by TCB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 I get that the upper level shooters are only concerned with match or division wins. At nationals some might be happy with top 10 or whatever. There are some midrange/lower level shooters that want a class win, top B,C. Etc. But I think there are a lot of us who just enjoy some good natured competition with buddies who are at a similar ability level. Or finishing ahead of a buddy that's shooting CO when you're shooting Production. Things like that. Many of us don't put in much work but do try to do our best (at whatever level you're at) when shooting a match. But I think we're all having fun. When I talk to friends or other shooters who don't compete I just emphasize how much fun the shooting is vs plinking at the range esoecially indoor ranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 hour ago, RJH said: You should really hunt around on Smith & Wesson's website and see if they even make a 40 for sure. Especially one that would be anywhere near viable in limited. no plastic gun is viable in limited unless someone is paying you to shoot it. 2011's are allowed, so everyone serious shoots 2011s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 38 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: That's not even close to the reality. Almost anything can be used in Open. People stick around or not based on the community. Why isn't USPSA focused on building the community Nationally instead of pandering to companies trying to influence the rules? LO is going to easily be one of the most popular divisions in USPSA that's the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigG Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 3 hours ago, SufferInSilence said: Yup and the mootness/ ridiculousness/ redundancy issue went out the window when the sport allowed PCC to be a thing anyway so, still not seeing why everyone is so full of outrage over this… That has no effect on existing divisions especially the most popular division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said: LO is going to easily be one of the most popular divisions in USPSA that's the reality. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darqusoull13 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said: LO is going to easily be one of the most popular divisions in USPSA that's the reality. Explain how changing the cost to entry going from $800-1000 for pistol + optic to $4k+ for a pistol will make a division more popular? CO is popular because you can get a Glock, a dot and a tube of locktite and play. The reason LO will never do what you think it will do is the same reason Open is dying, perceived cost to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigG Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 56 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: Why isn't USPSA focused on building the community Nationally instead of pandering to companies trying to influence the rules? Troy and the gang swear on the NROI podcast that isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigG Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: Explain how changing the cost to entry going from $800-1000 for pistol + optic to $4k+ for a pistol will make a division more popular? CO is popular because you can get a Glock, a dot and a tube of locktite and play. The reason LO will never do what you think it will do is the same reason Open is dying, perceived cost to play. This exactly. I've been in and out of the sport for a long time. And there was a time I shot guns that cost as much or more than 99.9% of the members of the sport. That just isn't what I want to spend my money on now. And it sure isn't where a new shooter who may or may not want to stay in the sport wants to spend their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 10 minutes ago, GigG said: Wow! I’ll be sure to give your opinion serious consideration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 45 minutes ago, motosapiens said: no plastic gun is viable in limited unless someone is paying you to shoot it. 2011's are allowed, so everyone serious shoots 2011s. You realize that doesn't even make sense don't you? If a plastic gun isn't viable, it could never win no matter how much somebody got paid to shoot it. When plastic crapperware beats a combined hundreds of thousand dollars or so worth of 2011's, you would have to be pretty ignorant to think it wasn't actually viable Now, if you said no one would shoot plastic guns at the highest level if they weren't paid to, that could very well be true. But to say they're not viable is just doubling down on ignorance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 32 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: Explain how changing the cost to entry going from $800-1000 for pistol + optic to $4k+ for a pistol will make a division more popular? CO is popular because you can get a Glock, a dot and a tube of locktite and play. The reason LO will never do what you think it will do is the same reason Open is dying, perceived cost to play. I think it'll come down to magwells not trigger. Most locals people are looking at the overall and will likely see a chance to improve their game with out more practice by just adding a magwell. Really not even adding a magwell since the most popular gun in CO is probably the legion and everyone has to take the magwell off just to play. Imagine being able to run your canik or legion with all the stuff it came with from the factory. If someone is really hung up on needing a 2011, now they can go buy a prodigy for about the price of a shadow 2. So cost of play is starting to go out the window too. As we've already seen people here do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 45 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: Explain how changing the cost to entry going from $800-1000 for pistol + optic to $4k+ for a pistol will make a division more popular? CO is popular because you can get a Glock, a dot and a tube of locktite and play. The reason LO will never do what you think it will do is the same reason Open is dying, perceived cost to play. You don’t have to spend 4k on a limited gun, especially if it’s minor. Legions and cocked-and-locked CZs will be winning in LO. Hell, somebody will win a few matches with a tuned up Glock or P10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 50 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said: The reason LO will never do what you think it will do is the same reason Open is dying, perceived cost to play. Open is not dying A friend of mine data mined uspsa matches on practiscore with all the data from before CO and PCC existed till mid last year graphed out the trends were crystal clear, if it has iron sights its dead or dying. this is what participation looked like Open Unchanged Limited Dying rapidly Production Dead SS was never doing well and still not Revo still a rounding error L10 still dumb PCC peaked about 2 years ago and has leveld off CO exploded and continues to grow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: Talking to my AD a month or so back about this. He did mention a lot of manufactures coming out with SAO optics ready guns that didn't fit into CO. But, he also mentioned getting more and more people asking for it, and even seeing guys show up to matches (he's a MD of a local club) with these guns and needing to explain to them why they're in open and not CO. His thinking at the time was this was probably going to happen in time as support seems to be growing. He also mentioned IPSC has been talking about a similar division. I was predicting this a year ago, was just a matter of time. Didn't know how USPSA would address it though. To add to it IDPA already allows SAO in their CO Division (Provisional still?). Be curious to see how the various platforms shake out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I think it'll come down to magwells not trigger. Most locals people are looking at the overall and will likely see a chance to improve their game with out more practice by just adding a magwell. Really not even adding a magwell since the most popular gun in CO is probably the legion and everyone has to take the magwell off just to play. Imagine being able to run your canik or legion with all the stuff it came with from the factory. If someone is really hung up on needing a 2011, now they can go buy a prodigy for about the price of a shadow 2. So cost of play is starting to go out the window too. As we've already seen people here do. It actually comes down to perception, NONE of the advantages of a LO gun make a scoring difference in anyone with a reasonable skill level, BUT people believe they do and act as if their assumption is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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