Limited Optics

[Bosshoss]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Why would I want to punch myself in the D!(K??

Sounds like you are doing it wrong if that is what you are worried about.

[echotango]

50 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the more I think about this, and read what other people think, the more I think it would actually make sense to have an equipment ruleset for CO that was the same as production, including a 15 round limit, a weight limit in the 45-50-oz range, non-race holsters, no magwells, no SAO triggers, etc....

 

it would also make sense to have an equipment ruleset for limited optics that mostly matches limited (with the likely exception of major scoring, because that will make staccato owners and little girls cry many soft wet tears). 140 rd mags, race holsters, magwells, slide rackers, possibly frame mount dots allowed (i think this would broaden the appeal without making it a requirement).

 

I think there would be much weeping and wailing trying to put the genie back in the bottle regarding CO weight limit and 140 rd mags......... unless there was a new division like lim optics where those things were legal.

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I think both optics divisions would be interesting in different ways, and of course those of us with actual *practical* guns could choose either division based on the rest of our gear preferences.

Perfect. Wrap it up and let's be done. Start 2/1/23. 

[RJH]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

 

.

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by RJH

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

the more I think about this, and read what other people think, the more I think it would actually make sense to have an equipment ruleset for CO that was the same as production, including a 15 round limit, a weight limit in the 45-50-oz range, non-race holsters, no magwells, no SAO triggers, etc....

 

it would also make sense to have an equipment ruleset for limited optics that mostly matches limited (with the likely exception of major scoring, because that will make staccato owners and little girls cry many soft wet tears). 140 rd mags, race holsters, magwells, slide rackers, possibly frame mount dots allowed (i think this would broaden the appeal without making it a requirement).

 

I think there would be much weeping and wailing trying to put the genie back in the bottle regarding CO weight limit and 140 rd mags......... unless there was a new division like lim optics where those things were legal.

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I think both optics divisions would be interesting in different ways, and of course those of us with actual *practical* guns could choose either division based on the rest of our gear preferences.

 

That's what I think we should do

[Dazhi]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

the more I think about this, and read what other people think, the more I think it would actually make sense to have an equipment ruleset for CO that was the same as production, including a 15 round limit, a weight limit in the 45-50-oz range, non-race holsters, no magwells, no SAO triggers, etc....

 

it would also make sense to have an equipment ruleset for limited optics that mostly matches limited (with the likely exception of major scoring, because that will make staccato owners and little girls cry many soft wet tears). 140 rd mags, race holsters, magwells, slide rackers, possibly frame mount dots allowed (i think this would broaden the appeal without making it a requirement).

 

I think there would be much weeping and wailing trying to put the genie back in the bottle regarding CO weight limit and 140 rd mags......... unless there was a new division like lim optics where those things were legal.

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I think both optics divisions would be interesting in different ways, and of course those of us with actual *practical* guns could choose either division based on the rest of our gear preferences.

 

100% agree.

[Boomstick303]

15 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the more I think about this, and read what other people think, the more I think it would actually make sense to have an equipment ruleset for CO that was the same as production, including a 15 round limit, a weight limit in the 45-50-oz range, non-race holsters, no magwells, no SAO triggers, etc....

 

it would also make sense to have an equipment ruleset for limited optics that mostly matches limited (with the likely exception of major scoring, because that will make staccato owners and little girls cry many soft wet tears). 140 rd mags, race holsters, magwells, slide rackers, possibly frame mount dots allowed (i think this would broaden the appeal without making it a requirement).

 

I think there would be much weeping and wailing trying to put the genie back in the bottle regarding CO weight limit and 140 rd mags......... unless there was a new division like lim optics where those things were legal.

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I think both optics divisions would be interesting in different ways, and of course those of us with actual *practical* guns could choose either division based on the rest of our gear preferences.

 

You mean there should be a place for Minor single action guns......

 

In all seriousness, similar ideas have been floated on the forum and I think just about everyone would agree with this idea, but as you mentioned I think it is a hard sell for USPSA to put the mag capacity genie back in the bottle in regards to CO.  I think we can all agree switching CO to 15 rounds now I think would be met with a lot of resistance even if LO were introduced.  I do not think the weight issue would bring too much heart burn.

 

I do agree there is really not much difference between LO and CO as currently proposed.  Maybe some changes can be realized in CO if LO does become a provisional and data indicates people are moving from CO to LO with their current gear because they want to run Magwells or for other reasons. If there is a good mix of gun types in LO I could see a scenario where the changes above could become a reality after some time with little resistance.  

 

Plus who knows.  Maybe the Organization are making these are steps to do exactly what you proposed above over  time so the revolt to changes in CO would not be met with such vitriol.  While I can see the reasons from making Production and CO similar in most rule sets, essentially just allowing an optic in CO I do not see that reviving Production in my opinion.

 

LO is not guaranteed as of yet.   Lets be honest, how much of the membership even knows there is a survey asking about the addition of LO as a provisional let alone the percentage of membership that will take the time to answer any of the survey questions?  Either way it will be interesting on how things shake out.  

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

as you mentioned I think it is a hard sell for USPSA to put the mag capacity genie back in the bottle in regards to CO.  I think we can all agree switching CO to 15 rounds now I think would be met with a lot of resistance even if LO were introduced.  I do not think the weight issue would bring too much heart burn.

 

imho, as long as lim optics is around, making CO 15 rounds shouldn't cause too much heartburn (but maybe it will). It wouldn't be a big deal to me to take the extensions off my mags and reload 1 more time. The bigger issue would be where the weight limit is. If it's as low as ipsc prod optics light, that would mean pretty much all the metal guns would be in the racier division. Maybe no one would care. I would probably not care all that much. It would just mean I switched to lim optics (when i shoot an optic).

[Jim Watson]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:50 AM, motosapiens said:

I stayed with a friend of a friend in salt lake who has never competed but owns a shadow 2.

 

Of course alot of staccatos and atlases are going to non-competitors too.

 

I wonder how many non-competitors buying Staccatos and the other short 2011s on the basis of their present "duty and defense" advertising are really carrying them long term.  They are all rather bulky and the ones with iron butts are heavy.

I suspect a lot are demoted to "range guns" and a plastic popper goes to town.

[ltdmstr]

8 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

I wonder how many non-competitors buying Staccatos and the other short 2011s on the basis of their present "duty and defense" advertising are really carrying them long term.  They are all rather bulky and the ones with iron butts are heavy.

I suspect a lot are demoted to "range guns" and a plastic popper goes to town.

 

Yep.  A 2011 or something similar size is kinda hard to conceal when you're out and about in shorts and a t-shirt.

Edited January 10, 2023 by ltdmstr

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

I wonder how many non-competitors buying Staccatos and the other short 2011s on the basis of their present "duty and defense" advertising are really carrying them long term.  They are all rather bulky and the ones with iron butts are heavy.

I suspect a lot are demoted to "range guns" and a plastic popper goes to town.

 

9 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Yep.  A 2011 or something similar size is kinda hard to conceal when you're out and about in shorts and a t-shirt.

 

A staccato C2 weighs 25 oz with a 3.9 inch barrel and hold 16 rounds. So it ain't far off a Glock 19. So carrying one doesn't seem like it would be any that real issue.

 

I occasionally carry a full size 1911, in the right holster it's not really a big deal. I generally carry a gun about the size of a Glock 19,  even when I'm wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I don't doubt that I could carry my prodigy fairly easily as well. 

 

 

I do agree, micro nines are where it's at for most people anymore for carry guns

[Jim Watson]

You could graph an inverse relationship of my age versus the size of gun carried.

I once thought nothing of a 1911 or .357 but now it has been a long time since even my Commander went to town.  A G43 is about right.  

[Darqusoull13]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:47 AM, shred said:

Didn't somebody that knows say CZ ships more Shadow 2's in a year than there are USPSA members total?

I mean, you can't stop at just 1. 3 is a good start  

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

I mean, you can't stop at just 1. 3 is a good start  

 

Or at least get 3 slide stops and 3 trs. 

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Or at least get 3 slide stops and 3 trs. 

lolz.... still waiting to break my first cz slidestop, but I have broken 1 on a 1911 and 2 on a 2011.

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

lolz.... still waiting to break my first cz slidestop, but I have broken 1 on a 1911 and 2 on a 2011.

 

I haven't broken one yet either. And a 1911 really shouldn't either. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I haven't broken one yet either. And a 1911 really shouldn't either. 

it was an sti trojan, probably a monday morning gun built by a hungover noob, who mismeasured the link dimensions.  we’ve had 3 pretty “meh” sti’s, and 3 extremely tight and well built guns.

[Bdh821]

I’m all setup!

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Bdh821 said:

I’m all setup!

 

The best part is some people think that that gun can't compete with a 2011

[Bdh821]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The best part is some people think that that gun can't compete with a 2011

Who cares what others think? 
 

Also, Nils and Mason have proven plastic fantastics can beat 2011s..  point being, pretty sure it doesn’t matter

Edited January 11, 2023 by Bdh821

[Darqusoull13]

19 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Or at least get 3 slide stops and 3 trs. 

In 3x Shadow 2's I have not had an issue with either a slide stop or a trigger return spring. I have worn out a factory recoil spring or 2 though. 

[Dutchman195]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:14 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

We might get a dozen tac-tards nationwide to try it, half of which won't come back because they got smoked.

My sentiment exactly. They are doing it for a money grab to try and get new memberships from the Tactical crowd. But those people will never shoot a major  -let alone a second or third local. And on top of that most clubs dont even require a USPSA membership to shoot, so really what is the point? a special division for them to feel special, take a screenshot of them being closer to first place and post it on their InstaGram? 

They have a division for Limited Optics.....Its called open. 

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

My sentiment exactly. They are doing it for a money grab to try and get new memberships from the Tactical crowd. 

 

you think this was the org's idea to try to boost membership? From everything I know, that seems completely off-base.

 

It seems to be coming more from constant pressure by a sponsor or two, and a handful of whiners who bought expensive guns that are not a competitive advantage in any current divisions.

[Racinready300ex]

43 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

In 3x Shadow 2's I have not had an issue with either a slide stop or a trigger return spring. I have worn out a factory recoil spring or 2 though. 

 

I have broken a couple trs but they weren't factory. And one wasn't the springs fault, a little piece of gravel hitched a ride in the mag and into the gun. 

 

17 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

My sentiment exactly. They are doing it for a money grab to try and get new memberships from the Tactical crowd. But those people will never shoot a major  -let alone a second or third local. And on top of that most clubs dont even require a USPSA membership to shoot, so really what is the point? a special division for them to feel special, take a screenshot of them being closer to first place and post it on their InstaGram? 

They have a division for Limited Optics.....Its called open. 

 

I don't know, I have seen those guys shooting open minor with staccato's at locals. So the people are out there, are there many who will really stick around I have no idea.

 

I do think LO as currently proposed may end up more popular than CO in a few years. The most popular gun I see in CO is probably a legion, and it comes with a magwell. Why not just leave it on and shoot LO instead of CO? Same with the rival. Then figure how many open shooters will happily ditch 9 major, and similarly Limited shooters tired of 40. LO is going to be lit. 

 

You don't have to be a member to shoot uspsa, but the club still pays a fee for everyone that shoots the match member or not. 

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

you think this was the org's idea to try to boost membership? From everything I know, that seems completely off-base.

 

It seems to be coming more from constant pressure by a sponsor or two, and a handful of whiners who bought expensive guns that are not a competitive advantage in any current divisions.

 

Talking to my AD a month or so back about this. He did mention a lot of manufactures coming out with SAO optics ready guns that didn't fit into CO. But, he also mentioned getting more and more people asking for it, and even seeing guys show up to matches (he's a MD of a local club) with these guns and needing to explain to them why they're in open and not CO. 

 

His thinking at the time was this was probably going to happen in time as support seems to be growing. He also mentioned IPSC has been talking about a similar division. 

[Darqusoull13]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Talking to my AD a month or so back about this. He did mention a lot of manufactures coming out with SAO optics ready guns that didn't fit into CO. But, he also mentioned getting more and more people asking for it, and even seeing guys show up to matches (he's a MD of a local club) with these guns and needing to explain to them why they're in open and not CO. 

 

His thinking at the time was this was probably going to happen in time as support seems to be growing. He also mentioned IPSC has been talking about a similar division. 

This is my fundamental problem with the proposal. There's an extremely small amount of people that aren't going to move the needle to grow the sport that CAN play in Open already.