Limited Optics

[Johnny_Chimpo]

43 minutes ago, RJH said:

People who don't shoot don't understand just how good even a solid C/ low b-Class shooter is. A good A class shooter looks pretty much like a god, and a GM they just can't comprehend

 

LEOs who come into the sport are much the same when they start. 

[Solairefastora]

22 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Nils Jonasson won three USPSA national titles this year with Canik Rival.......$680 MSRP

 

And if you're used to what ISSF rifle shooting gear costs, why are you even complaining about a $500 red dot and $35 mag extensions?

Because I’m tired of the fuss. I’m tired of chasing after gear and stuff and just want to find a place where I can shoot a bone stock gun and get good without worrying about whether I have the right whiz bang stuff. I don’t want to shoot a dot and have to worry about breakages or finding “the best.” It’s definitely a problem with me, but that’s just my take.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Solairefastora
Detail

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Also, back on topic, I shot a little match today and there were at least three people shooting limited optics. Well, at least limited optics guns. 

 

One was shooting a custom gun, one was shooting a staccato, and I was shooting a prodigy. So cost kind of ran the gamut, just like the guys shooting  carry outs

except it's 3x the gamut of carry optics gun prices.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

except it's 3x the gamut of carry optics gun prices.

 

Maybe double, not 3. And you can  buy currently legal carry-ops guns that cost more than two of them for sure, maybe all three. But whatever 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Solairefastora said:

I just want to find a place where I can shoot a bone stock gun and get good without worrying about whether I have the right whiz bang stuff.

 

Just have only two choices: get in the game or move on.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[robertson]

1 hour ago, Solairefastora said:

Because I’m tired of the fuss. I’m tired of chasing after gear and stuff and just want to find a place where I can shoot a bone stock gun and get good without worrying about whether I have the right whiz bang stuff. I don’t want to shoot a dot and have to worry about breakages or finding “the best.” It’s definitely a problem with me, but that’s just my take.

IDPA

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 minutes ago, robertson said:

IDPA

 

Not even.  Stock Service Pistol allows a ton of internal modifications.

[robertson]

1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Not even.  Stock Service Pistol allows a ton of internal modifications.

GSSF

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

Because I’m tired of the fuss. I’m tired of chasing after gear and stuff and just want to find a place where I can shoot a bone stock gun and get good without worrying about whether I have the right whiz bang stuff. I don’t want to shoot a dot and have to worry about breakages or finding “the best.” It’s definitely a problem with me, but that’s just my take.

 find a 5 or 5.25 inch plastic fantastic name brand 40 or a CZ based 40, add a few after market parts as you go, adjustable rear and a fiber optic front would be nice..  Load up 19 rounds shoot limited call it a day. You will never be handicapped by equipment as long as it runs,, you only shoot against people in your class. If you hit GM and start losing matches overall by a few points then MAYBE you might pick up a few points with a 2011 platform.
Old timers do the sport a diservice pointing out equipment a new guy is shooting against. They arent shooting against anything. Its just a perception you need a 4k gun.

 

[ddc]

2 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

Because I’m tired of the fuss. I’m tired of chasing after gear and stuff and just want to find a place where I can shoot a bone stock gun and get good without worrying about whether I have the right whiz bang stuff. I don’t want to shoot a dot and have to worry about breakages or finding “the best.” It’s definitely a problem with me, but that’s just my take.

 

If that were my goal and I was going to shoot Production I'd get a Sig P320 Legion and a bunch of stock 17 round mags.

I'd get a decent double belt system and a holster with a drop belt hanger attachment.

Buy a bunch of ammo and go shoot.

You can get a complete belt/holster/mag pouch set up from Stoeger's Pro Shop. One stop shopping.

 

That rig will get you way far down the road before you find it lacking.

 

If I was going to add one enhancement it would be the Gray Guns Comp trigger kit or The Sig Armorer equivalent.

.

Rough prices:

Sig P320 Legion: $1000

Belt/holster/Pouches: $250

Couple extra mags and pouches: $100/$150

Total: $1400

 

That's the basic price of admission with brand new gear

 

Edited to add: I'm coming at this from the position of a P320 X5 shooter.

You can do more or less the same thing with any  of the usual suspects.

Edited January 8, 2023 by ddc

[SufferInSilence]

Many are already stereotyping what an LO gun is and it isn’t even a division yet.  

No one has said it must be a SAO 2011 type gun in LO to play. 

Matter of fact, unless they specifically come out saying rackers, thumb rest or frame mounted optics are specifically allowed, there’s nothing that would make it different than CO (except the hammer back fuss) 

And if they did add rackers, rest and frame mounts, then it’s just Open minus the compensator, which is pointless.  
 

The easiest fix for all this hot mess is: 

- SAOs in CO and let everyone run hammer back safety on, hammer down if you want (like in limited rules) 

 

- Maybe even making a power factor floor (say130-135) and get rid of Maj/Min altogether.  (Run your load how you want, just not below the floor) 

 * CO is new enough that a change to it wouldn’t be so controversial. 
 * Its not adding yet another national match. 

 * Not further watering down the divisions. 

 

 

[Solairefastora]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

 

If that were my goal and I was going to shoot Production I'd get a Sig P320 Legion and a bunch of stock 17 round mags.

I'd get a decent double belt system and a holster with a drop belt hanger attachment.

Buy a bunch of ammo and go shoot.

You can get a complete belt/holster/mag pouch set up from Stoeger's Pro Shop. One stop shopping.

 

That rig will get you way far down the road before you find it lacking.

 

If I was going to add one enhancement it would be the Gray Guns Comp trigger kit or The Sig Armorer equivalent.

.

Rough prices:

Sig P320 Legion: $1000

Belt/holster/Pouches: $250

Couple extra mags and pouches: $100/$150

Total: $1400

 

That's the basic price of admission with brand new gear

 

Edited to add: I'm coming at this from the position of a P320 X5 shooter.

You can do more or less the same thing with any  of the usual suspects.

I appreciate the advice!

[deerslayer]

5 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

I don’t want to shoot a dot and have to worry about breakages 

 

Then you don't need to get a dot.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

No one has said it must be a SAO 2011 type gun in LO to play. 

 

And yet that is what it will become.

 

This new guy's wrong impression about start up costs will only be reinforced X1000 when LO becomes mostly 2011.  And that's why I oppose SAO in CO.

 

Some outlaw match called Prairie Fire that the tacticool crowd loves:  "I was shooting my usual G17/RMR against a field of tricked-out limited-type 9mm dot guns"

https://pistol-training.com/prairiefire-rank-championship/

 

It'd be very interesting to know how many shooters choose a SAO optic pistol to compete in "Performance Optics" in that Infinity match in TX.  My bet is it will be the majority.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[RJH]

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

And yet that is what it will become.

 

It is possible, but not necessarily a bad thing

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

This new guy's wrong impression about start up costs will only be reinforced X1000 when LO becomes mostly 2011.  And that's why I oppose SAO in CO.

 

I understand your point here, but I think me and you would both agree basing divisions on what new people to the sport perceive is not a great idea

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Some outlaw match called Prairie Fire that the tacticool crowd loves:  "I was shooting my usual G17/RMR against a field of tricked-out limited-type 9mm dot guns"

https://pistol-training.com/prairiefire-rank-championship/

 

Very few people that take carry ops serious at all shoot their usual Glock 17/RMR now. Even if you just look at the survey from carryops Nationals a year or so back, czs and sig legions I believe, are by far the most used gun in carryouts. Both cost double or more of what the g17 does and are not far off of some of the low end 2011s. I know we've had this discussion before, so I'm not really wanting to rehash it all, just pointing out that almost nobody shoots glock 17s in carryops today so nothing would actually change. All that said, at the match I was talking about earlier yesterday, a guy shooting a stock looking Glock 34 with an SRO beat two of us with 2011's. He just had more skill and that's what actually matters.  I think we would agree that skill, not equipment, is the actual determiner of results

 

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

It'd be very interesting to know how many shooters choose a SAO optic pistol to compete in "Performance Optics" in that Infinity match in TX.  My bet is it will be the majority.

This would be an interesting thing to find out as well. I think the match is hoping to draw in a lot of the Sao optic type guns though so it might give a skewed number. But it might also give a number showing the interest in,and guns already set up, to shoot Sao carryops 

 

 

Have a good one

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Maybe double, not 3. And you can  buy currently legal carry-ops guns that cost more than two of them for sure, maybe all three. But whatever 

prodigy is wut, $1500? well over double the price of a canik or crappy glock.

 

certainly it is possible in *any* division to spend a crap ton of money. there are folks shooting SS with $4-5k guns, but if you look at the CO guns people are actually competiting with (which I did when I ran a stage at nationals in september), the overwhelming majority of them are in the $700-1500 range. That would no longer be the case if custom 2011's were allowed. Then we would see the majority of guns in the $3000-5000 range, just like we do in every other division where custom 2011's are allowed.

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

No one has said it must be a SAO 2011 type gun in LO to play. 

 

look at every other division where SAO 2011's are allowed by the rules. They overwhelmingly dominate those divisions, and only a handful of noobs or paid professionals are using anything else.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

prodigy is wut, $1500? well over double the price of a canik or crappy glock.

 

certainly it is possible in *any* division to spend a crap ton of money. there are folks shooting SS with $4-5k guns, but if you look at the CO guns people are actually competiting with (which I did when I ran a stage at nationals in september), the overwhelming majority of them are in the $700-1500 range. That would no longer be the case if custom 2011's were allowed. Then we would see the majority of guns in the $3000-5000 range, just like we do in every other division where custom 2011's are allowed.

 

One guy yesterday was shooting with an LLT that cost more than a prodigy. I think I also saw two steel frame walthers, what are they 1900 or so? There are "race ready" CZs being sold for $3000 

 

My prodigy was 1400, the newest plastic canic is about 700. I don't know what the metal canic will cost.

 

A stacatto is about $2,200, an Accu Shadow 2 (I think that's the right version if it's not, I'm sure you know which one it is LOL) is about $2,200

 

Girsan makes a high power copy that's optics ready for like 700 bucks, for the super budgeting minded Sao optics person lol

 

Basically prices are just what they are, and as always you can spend what  ever you want without any performance gains, but you know that. Like I said earlier on a different post, a guy with a stock looking Glock 34 that didn't even have a light kicked the crap out of me and another guy shooting Sao optics guns at a club match yesterday. 

 

 

[RJH]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

look at every other division where SAO 2011's are allowed by the rules. They overwhelmingly dominate those divisions, and only a handful of noobs or paid professionals are using anything else.

 

 

Serious question for you though, do you feel there is any actual on the clock advantage shooting a 2011 versus shooting a CZ Accu shadow in single action?

 

And since 2011's can weigh anywhere from 35 oz to 50 something ounces let's just go with they weigh the same whatever that number is

[ddc]

11 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

 * CO is new enough that a change to it wouldn’t be so controversial. 

 

 

Really? Have you even been reading any of the CO/LO threads?

[SufferInSilence]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

 

Serious question for you though, do you feel there is any actual on the clock advantage shooting a 2011 versus shooting a CZ Accu shadow in single action?

 

And since 2011's can weigh anywhere from 35 oz to 50 something ounces let's just go with they weigh the same whatever that number is

Exactly my point for the past 25 pages…

 

All these guys are crying like they care about “new people”

 
I have a Stock 2, several 2011s (even a LO one).  Believe it or not if SAOs were added to CO I’d still go with my Stock 2.  The controls are more ergonomic, it’s less finicky, and I wouldn’t have to buy more gear.  

I even shoot my Tac Sport over my Edge in Limited because it’s a wee-bit faster.   

 

Stop complaining about gear, and being the jail house lawyer of the “new guy”.  
 

Do your part for YOU.  Dry fire, practice foot work, and set realistic/ achievable goals.  
 

[SufferInSilence]

2 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

Really? Have you even been reading any of the CO/LO threads?

It’s controversial cause it’s a bunch of cry babies making that way.  
likely the same kind of guys that don’t setup for matches, go to working parties, bust out after a match without helping tear down, and are stuck in B/C class cause they won’t train their way out of it.  
 

Guys whose egos are so defined by results at some beer league level one Tuesday night match that they take to the internet to crap on every subject matter they can’t overcome.  
 
Wont step up and be a part of the leadership or solution but cry about every decision made by others.  
Just saying, most people need to check themselves before they blab so much.  

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

One guy yesterday was shooting with an LLT that cost more than a prodigy. I think I also saw two steel frame walthers, what are they 1900 or so? There are "race ready" CZs being sold for $3000 

 

it's not really that important to me what is *available*. It's more important what everyone actually uses. In CO the majority of guns are relatively affordable. In all the divisions where custom 2011's are allowed, the majority of guns are very expensive. Yes, you can buy a cheap limited gun, but almost no one does. Yes, you can buy a very expensive cz, but not many people do. There are a large number of shadow 2's at my local club (stock gun with spring changes and an extended firing pin), and zero accushadows. And they're all getting beat by a guy shooting a 320.

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Serious question for you though, do you feel there is any actual on the clock advantage shooting a 2011 versus shooting a CZ Accu shadow in single action?

as previously mentioned, it makes no difference to me if there as an advantage. I don't know if I would notice one, but dazhi (an elite shooter who beat max michel on most of the stages at a match I worked) seems to believe there is a difference.

 

the issue to me is not whether 2011's will have a performance advantage, the issue to me is whether we need to change  CO into yet another division that is utterly dominated by custom 2011's, where only a handful of noobs and weirdos and sponsored pros shoot anything else. I think that is bad for the sport and bad for the industry at large (although probably good for staccato and atlas).

 

so limited optics doesn't bother me, but changing CO into another 2011 division bothers me alot.

[shred]

Didn't somebody that knows say CZ ships more Shadow 2's in a year than there are USPSA members total?