Limited Optics

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

I am curious about one thing though, for those who say that newer shooters can easily do something like shoot leemeeted meener if they're starting out, couldn't the same concept be done in reverse?

 

If someone has been shooting for awhile, why can't they just shoot a self-imposed 10 rd Open/Limited/CO? Not trying to antagonize anyone, but I think that if individuals facing both questions (why not shoot lim minor or shoot 10 rd open) answer them honestly, we'll see a bit of an overlap of ideology.

A new shooter isnt classified,, So shooting limited, not major,, or not a 2011 isnt a handicap. Which older shooters need to STOP telling new shooters are shooting against,, other equipment.
They arnt. they are shooting against other people in the same class... IE new guy with an XDM, 9mm loads to capacity in limited.. Classifies as a C... he shoots against others that classify with a C with their equipment. 
There is no gear handicap.
An older Guy who is already classified, and was using a limited major gun, would be handicapped if he went back to a minor gun.. As he would be classed with his older equipment which might pu him in a higher class than he is able to score with the minor gun

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

That's definitely a fair point, but I think there needs to be a distinction between a rule specifically designed to help newer shooters (not exactly sure what you're referring to, I hopefully correctly assume a larger mag cap in Prod) and one that helps both new and older shooters but helps newer shooters more. 

 

More specifically in regard to your point, just because newer shooters don't know the rules doesn't mean they can't be negatively affected by them. There is also some credence to the idea of accessibility. Although one could easily argue that people who want to dedicate themselves hardcore to the sport will self-start and sift through all the rules by themselves, simplifying them to a certain extent (as long as it doesn't affect competitive integrity) just saves a gear check hassle.

 

 

 

I guess people don't like to read.

 

The point of rules isn't to help or hinder anyone.  I'm struggling to understand what point are you trying to make.

 

Help me out.

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

29 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

A new shooter isnt classified,, So shooting limited, not major,, or not a 2011 isnt a handicap. Which older shooters need to STOP telling new shooters are shooting against,, other equipment.
They arnt. they are shooting against other people in the same class... IE new guy with an XDM, 9mm loads to capacity in limited.. Classifies as a C... he shoots against others that classify with a C with their equipment. 
There is no gear handicap.
An older Guy who is already classified, and was using a limited major gun, would be handicapped if he went back to a minor gun.. As he would be classed with his older equipment which might pu him in a higher class than he is able to score with the minor gun

 

 

New shooters don't know any of this and won't care for some time.  They are mostly overwhelmed  and basically trying to make it through the day without a DQ.

 

By the time they understand what you're talking about they have become saavy enough to not really care about participation awards.

[Solairefastora]

11 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I guess people don't like to read.

 

The point of rules isn't to help or hinder anyone.  I'm struggling to understand what point are you trying to make.

 

Help me out.

 

 

The point of rules isn't to help or hinder anyone, but the problem is that they inadvertently do by the restrictions (or lack thereof). My response was more of a counter to @rowdyb's specific idea "why should we make rules for new shooters when they don't know them anyway (literally pulled from his comment)."

 

I realize my overall point wasn't really clear, so I'll talk from the perspective from someone who has been watching USPSA from the sidelines, sometimes participating in the shooting sports and wanting to get into USPSA but having some concerns about the rules. Overall, this is the perspective of someone who has done and (thinks he) understands the shooting sports via participation in them but have never been involved in USPSA specifically.

 

For the topic at hand, why would I prefer having a 15-round Production capacity over a 10-round one? First of all, reloads are hard. The usual and probably good from a competitive aspect answer would be "get good at reloads then nerd." For me, I would rather hone my skills in other aspects of the sport (stage planning, target transitions, recoil control, etc.) than reloads, so naturally I would prefer higher capacity divisions. But, the problem with CO/LO/L/O is the absurd amount of money and time I would have to dump in to get a competitive gearset. From the outside looking in, an optic ($500ish) basepads ($50-100ish) is a lot of dosh to add into the other gear necessary for initial participation in the sport. If I'm entering the sport with something like a Glock 34, I have literally almost doubled the amount of money I need to invest to get started. I would suspect other newer individuals would agree, but I have no evidence to make this claim. This is especially offputting in light of the fact that most normal doublestack guns can already hold 15-18 rounds, and a 15 round division would essentially let me compete at the highest level with the stock stuff that came with a gun (Shadow 2 $1200, 45 rounds enough to shoot any stage, I'm good to load and go). 

 

I'm thinking of a lot of points to make, but I would like to hear some input on my ideas and make this a discussion rather than a one-way street. 

 

 

 

[Solairefastora]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

A new shooter isnt classified,, So shooting limited, not major,, or not a 2011 isnt a handicap. Which older shooters need to STOP telling new shooters are shooting against,, other equipment.
They arnt. they are shooting against other people in the same class... IE new guy with an XDM, 9mm loads to capacity in limited.. Classifies as a C... he shoots against others that classify with a C with their equipment. 
There is no gear handicap.
An older Guy who is already classified, and was using a limited major gun, would be handicapped if he went back to a minor gun.. As he would be classed with his older equipment which might pu him in a higher class than he is able to score with the minor gun

 

That's a fair point I definitely didn't think about.

[Makicjf]

13 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Ill add to your list and put it in order

 

Not a revolver...

 

That's funny! 

[Balakay]

7 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

...But, the problem with CO/LO/L/O is the absurd amount of money and time I would have to dump in to get a competitive gearset. From the outside looking in, an optic ($500ish) basepads ($50-100ish)..

If this is the barrier to entry for you, I would strongly consider another hobby.  Do the math on a week of practice for many "competitors", people with no chance of winning a major match but who aspire to improve for their own reasons (like me).  

 

reloading/ammo costs for 500+ rounds/week

local match fees.

gas to drive the 80 mile round trip to the range 2x per week

 

Then add in Majors, hotel, airfare, food, etc..  And a backup gun(s). And a backup optic or three

 

And you are worried about basepads which will likely not need replacing for years?   Time to take a hard look at your finances and decide if USPSA makes sense for you

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

The point of rules isn't to help or hinder anyone, but the problem is that they inadvertently do by the restrictions (or lack thereof). My response was more of a counter to @rowdyb's specific idea "why should we make rules for new shooters when they don't know them anyway (literally pulled from his comment)."

 

I realize my overall point wasn't really clear, so I'll talk from the perspective from someone who has been watching USPSA from the sidelines, sometimes participating in the shooting sports and wanting to get into USPSA but having some concerns about the rules. Overall, this is the perspective of someone who has done and (thinks he) understands the shooting sports via participation in them but have never been involved in USPSA specifically.

 

For the topic at hand, why would I prefer having a 15-round Production capacity over a 10-round one? First of all, reloads are hard. The usual and probably good from a competitive aspect answer would be "get good at reloads then nerd." For me, I would rather hone my skills in other aspects of the sport (stage planning, target transitions, recoil control, etc.) than reloads, so naturally I would prefer higher capacity divisions. But, the problem with CO/LO/L/O is the absurd amount of money and time I would have to dump in to get a competitive gearset. From the outside looking in, an optic ($500ish) basepads ($50-100ish) is a lot of dosh to add into the other gear necessary for initial participation in the sport. If I'm entering the sport with something like a Glock 34, I have literally almost doubled the amount of money I need to invest to get started. I would suspect other newer individuals would agree, but I have no evidence to make this claim. This is especially offputting in light of the fact that most normal doublestack guns can already hold 15-18 rounds, and a 15 round division would essentially let me compete at the highest level with the stock stuff that came with a gun (Shadow 2 $1200, 45 rounds enough to shoot any stage, I'm good to load and go). 

 

I'm thinking of a lot of points to make, but I would like to hear some input on my ideas and make this a discussion rather than a one-way street. 

 

 

 

 

Typical new guy stuff....thinking that gear is what will hold you back from being competitive.

 

This sport is not cheap, but there are smart ways to get in without dumping tons of stupid money.  I can quickly destroy your financial estimate but I'm hungry and need coffee right now.

 

I'm not going to rebut your post point by point, all I will say is that if you really believe what you wrote then you are clearly someone who has virtually zero experience in this sport and your assumptions come from a place of ignorance.

 

Here's one thing you missed: lightning fast reloads are a big part of the game in ANY division: classifiers are full of them.

 

Your imaginary concerns are absolutely not the place to craft rules from.

 

Get in the game, get a couple of seasons of experience, then we'll talk.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[ddc]

9 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

The point of rules isn't to help or hinder anyone, but the problem is that they inadvertently do by the restrictions (or lack thereof).

 

Ok...every rule set that ever existed inadvertently helps or hinders someone.

There is no way around it. That is literally a fact of life.

 

[deerslayer]

9 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

The point of rules isn't to help or hinder anyone, but the problem is that they inadvertently do by the restrictions (or lack thereof). My response was more of a counter to @rowdyb's specific idea "why should we make rules for new shooters when they don't know them anyway (literally pulled from his comment)."

 

I realize my overall point wasn't really clear, so I'll talk from the perspective from someone who has been watching USPSA from the sidelines, sometimes participating in the shooting sports and wanting to get into USPSA but having some concerns about the rules. Overall, this is the perspective of someone who has done and (thinks he) understands the shooting sports via participation in them but have never been involved in USPSA specifically.

 

For the topic at hand, why would I prefer having a 15-round Production capacity over a 10-round one? First of all, reloads are hard. The usual and probably good from a competitive aspect answer would be "get good at reloads then nerd." For me, I would rather hone my skills in other aspects of the sport (stage planning, target transitions, recoil control, etc.) than reloads, so naturally I would prefer higher capacity divisions. But, the problem with CO/LO/L/O is the absurd amount of money and time I would have to dump in to get a competitive gearset. From the outside looking in, an optic ($500ish) basepads ($50-100ish) is a lot of dosh to add into the other gear necessary for initial participation in the sport. If I'm entering the sport with something like a Glock 34, I have literally almost doubled the amount of money I need to invest to get started. I would suspect other newer individuals would agree, but I have no evidence to make this claim. This is especially offputting in light of the fact that most normal doublestack guns can already hold 15-18 rounds, and a 15 round division would essentially let me compete at the highest level with the stock stuff that came with a gun (Shadow 2 $1200, 45 rounds enough to shoot any stage, I'm good to load and go). 

 

I'm thinking of a lot of points to make, but I would like to hear some input on my ideas and make this a discussion rather than a one-way street. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think getting good at reloads is as hard as you apparently believe.  

 

I'm not a fan of Production, but would probably shoot it some if capacity went to 15.  I don't mind reloading, but some of the stage plans become absurd.  This is partly due (as mentioned above) to stages nowadays being designed with hicap and PCC in mind.  

 

I don't consider buying a dot and three or four $40 base pads an "absurd amount of money" if you want to shoot CO.  However, I have seen several newer shooters compete in CO with stock magazines.  Depending on the stage, a 23 round mag vs a 17 round mag sometimes offers no advantage.  If you are thinking of trying CO, get your feet wet and get some match experience before you even buy base pads.  You may decide on a different gun.  

 

Someone a few pages back mentioned that he spends $15k a year on match fees and travel and these expenses basically make the cost of gear irrelevant.  That person is not a typical USPSA shooter, but he does illustrate that the gun/accessories are a smaller percentage of money spent (for probably everybody) than we realize. 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by deerslayer

[Solairefastora]

5 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I'm not going to rebut your post point by point, all I will say is that if you really believe what you wrote then you are clearly someone who has virtually zero experience in this sport and your assumptions come from a place of ignorance.

I appreciate the reply, this point is something I did address in my post (outside looking in perspective), so yes I do have minimal practical experience in the sport. The point I’m trying to make (and hopefully add a different perspective to this thread) is what someone who is not into USPSA thinks and evaluates when deciding “hey should I do this thing?”

Edited January 7, 2023 by Solairefastora
Rephrasing

[Johnny_Chimpo]

12 minutes ago, Solairefastora said:

 The point I’m trying to make (and hopefully add a different perspective to this thread) is what someone who is not into USPSA thinks and evaluates when deciding “hey should I do this thing?”

 

I understand that.

 

But people who don't know our sport need to understand any evaluation of equipment and skills needed to participate are made from a position of ignorance.  They can't possibly know what it costs to actually start since they haven't done it (or likely even asked). 

 

If someone really want to understand how little one needs to get started, go to a match and stick with one squad.  Engage shooters when they are not getting ready to shoot and one will learn much more than one ever could otherwise.

 

 

[Solairefastora]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I understand that.

 

But people who don't know our sport need to understand any evaluation of equipment and skills needed to participate are made from a position of ignorance.  They can't possibly know what it costs to actually start since they haven't done it (or likely even asked). 

 

If someone really want to understand how little one needs to get started, go to a match and stick with one squad.  Engage shooters when they are not getting ready to shoot and one will learn much more than one ever could otherwise.

 

 

Hmm, I see. That makes sense. I will definitely investigate and try that out.

[pskys2]

54 minutes ago, Solairefastora said:

Hmm, I see. That makes sense. I will definitely investigate and try that out.

You may regret it, once you show interest you will be swamped with help.  Seems one thing us shooters like almost as much as shooting, is taking about it!

[SufferInSilence]

Is this still a thread about LO? 
 

Spidey senses feeling a moderator shut down soon.   🪫  

 

Lemme help steer us back: 

* LO guns added to CO (war over) 

* no slide rackers or thumbs rest (go play in open) 

* all hammers back, safeties on, as an “option” for DA guns.  (Evens the odds) 
*otherwise all other CO rules apply.  
 

[shred]

"new shooters" are always the excuse for new divisions, but really they are pretty much all created for grumpy old shooters that think they could still win if it weren't for those meddling kids

[Johnny_Chimpo]

20 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

I am curious about one thing though, for those who say that newer shooters can easily do something like shoot leemeeted meener if they're starting out, couldn't the same concept be done in reverse?

 

If someone has been shooting for awhile, why can't they just shoot a self-imposed 10 rd Open/Limited/CO? Not trying to antagonize anyone, but I think that if individuals facing both questions (why not shoot lim minor or shoot 10 rd open) answer them honestly, we'll see a bit of an overlap of ideology.

 

Nope

[Johnny_Chimpo]

21 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

Although one could easily argue that people who want to dedicate themselves hardcore to the sport will self-start and sift through all the rules by themselves, simplifying them to a certain extent (as long as it doesn't affect competitive integrity) just saves a gear check hassle.

 

IME people who aren't serious about the sport never read the rulebook no matter how simple it may be.  They simply rely on word of mouth and what they think the rules are.

 

You see them here quite often, asking questions (mostly about gear) that they could have answered for themselves with 5 minutes of reading.  It's lazy and leaves you not knowing if you were really told something correct.

 

So catering to them is a non-starter

Edited January 7, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Johnny_Chimpo]

17 hours ago, Solairefastora said:

a 15 round division would essentially let me compete at the highest level with the stock stuff that came with a gun (Shadow 2 $1200, 45 rounds enough to shoot any stage, I'm good to load and go).

 

LOL as a new shooter you aren't going to be competing at the highest level with anything. 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

LOL as a new shooter you aren't going to be competing at the highest level with anything. 

 

Lol this reminds me at a match I used to run there was a guy that was showing up to shoot three gun for the first time. He was asking about what you won at those matches, I told him he didn't need to worry about that for a while

 

He told me he shot pretty good, I think he finished about 20% of the winner.

 

People who don't shoot don't understand just how good even a solid C/ low b-Class shooter is. A good A class shooter looks pretty much like a god, and a GM they just can't comprehend

[RJH]

Also, back on topic, I shot a little match today and there were at least three people shooting limited optics. Well, at least limited optics guns. 

 

One was shooting a custom gun, one was shooting a staccato, and I was shooting a prodigy. So cost kind of ran the gamut, just like the guys shooting  carry outs

[ddc]

7 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

LOL as a new shooter you aren't going to be competing at the highest level with anything. 

 

I'm pretty sure he meant "at the highest level he is himself capable of" and I believe he has already acknowledged that won't be very high.

[Solairefastora]

6 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I'm pretty sure he meant "at the highest level he is himself capable of" and I believe he has already acknowledged that won't be very high.

Exactly! Even though most likely gear won’t hold me back due to my newness, it’s something that feels really cool to me as a shooter, especially coming from the precision air rifle and smallbore field. “Wow, so you’re telling me I can get the same gear a world champion shoots with for less than 2k?”

 

Coming from a world of having to have a 3-4k air rifle and a 2-3k shooting suit in order to come close to being competitive, it’s something that sounds cool.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

27 minutes ago, Solairefastora said:

Exactly! Even though most likely gear won’t hold me back due to my newness, it’s something that feels really cool to me as a shooter, especially coming from the precision air rifle and smallbore field. “Wow, so you’re telling me I can get the same gear a world champion shoots with for less than 2k?”

 

Coming from a world of having to have a 3-4k air rifle and a 2-3k shooting suit in order to come close to being competitive, it’s something that sounds cool.

 

Nils Jonasson won three USPSA national titles this year with Canik Rival.......$680 MSRP

 

And if you're used to what ISSF rifle shooting gear costs, why are you even complaining about a $500 red dot and $35 mag extensions?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

40 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also, back on topic, I shot a little match today and there were at least three people shooting limited optics. Well, at least limited optics guns. 

 

One was shooting a custom gun, one was shooting a staccato, and I was shooting a prodigy. So cost kind of ran the gamut, just like the guys shooting  carry outs

 

I've been seeing a few here and there all through last year.  Nothing new.