Limited Optics

[Makicjf]

11 hours ago, shred said:

I did some simple side-by-side comparisons with a Lim-O (as proposed) 2011 and my CO Tanfo.  Same 9mm ammo.  While I liked the Lim-O more and it felt less flippy, on the clock and on the paper, there was not a gnats worth of difference.  I didn't do anything that used the magwell or slide racker to try and level the comparison.

 

 

If we apply reason, I'd say four items actually provide an advantage for equal skilled shooters.  In no particular order, they would be:

1)Capacity

2)Optic

3)Compensators

4)Power Factor

If these things are true, then a logical breakdown of USPSA Divisions *could* be:

1)Open (as is)

2) Limited optics ( same mods as limited, no trigger restriction, optic required, minor only)

3) Limited ( restrictions remain the same, Major PF only)

4)Production-same as limited, but minor only: 

5)PCC- stays the same

6) Single Stack (stays the same)

7) Revo- stays the same

 

No one is currently invested in a major PF Carry optics gun, so Limited major shooters don't lose. LM encapsulates  all the production shooters and current LM shooters and allows for use of basic pistols available off of the shelf.  141 mag extensions are readily available. You can be as fancy or basic as you want, no dot, no comp no major scoring.

Though tempting to combine Revo and SS to create a 5% participation legacy division, the unique and cumbersome manual of arms of a revo prohibits this.  An equally skilled SS shooter will be roughly 25% better over a match.  Even if Revo was scored Major at minor PF, there is no rational way to create parity.

  I think the above breakdown respects the mods which provide competitive advantage; allows people to shoot what they want; reduces confusion for newbies; respects the investment of every shooter while combining like divisions to increase the competitive pool ( where possible).

Just my thoughts after reading 28 pages of myriad opinions.

Jason

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Makicjf

[Makicjf]

Is there a bug in the site?  Some random phrase about fudgecicles and crayons keeps inserting itself into my post.

Jason

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

Is there a bug in the site?  Some random phrase about fudgecicles and crayons keeps inserting itself into my post.

Jason

 

It's not a bug it's a joke? Apparently the mods made it say the fudgesicle stuff whenever anybody mentions limited m i n o r. 

 

Anyway, it's kind of dumb but it's nothing you did. It's just somebody trying to be funny

[BritinUSA]

Someone set up a phrase replacement, I'm not sure if anyone is trying to fix it.

 

I think the main reason lo-cap divisions are failing is due to a rise in the number of hi-cap divisions.
 

This means that stage designers at L1 are catering to their majority customers and designing high round count stages which probably means lots of 8-shot arrays.

 

This will drive down lo-cap numbers even further.

 

it's all about stage design.

[Makicjf]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

It's not a bug it's a joke? Apparently the mods made it say the fudgesicle stuff whenever anybody mentions limited m i n o r. 

 

Anyway, it's kind of dumb but it's nothing you did. It's just somebody trying to be funny

Thats what I figured out!  I Just typed LM...

Thanks!

[ddc]

18 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

It's not a bug it's a joke? Apparently the mods made it say the fudgesicle stuff whenever anybody mentions limited m i n o r. 

 

Anyway, it's kind of dumb but it's nothing you did. It's just somebody trying to be funny

 

I wish they'd try harder. I'm sure it was funny the first time but it gets kind of old after a while.

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, Makicjf said:

An equally skilled SS shooter will be roughly 25% better over a match.  Even if Revo was scored Major at minor PF, there is no rational way to create parity.

 

You're absolutely correct about this. It's not a disparity you can fix with scoring, either—the exact margin depends on the nature of the stages. I can occasionally steal a stage win at local matches if it's 8 rounds or fewer, but I don't think it's ever happened on a stage that requires a reload.

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

You're absolutely correct about this. It's not a disparity you can fix with scoring, either—the exact margin depends on the nature of the stages. I can occasionally steal a stage win at local matches if it's 8 rounds or fewer, but I don't think it's ever happened on a stage that requires a reload.

 

I don't think anyone actually thinks there is a way to make revolvers competitive. Nothing will, it's more just a way to throw you a bone instead of just saying piss off and go shoot you're own sport. 

 

 

It makes no sense to talk about rolling Prod, SS and L10 into one division due to low participation when all of these are more popular than Revo. (maybe not L10) It would make more sense to just leave it all alone and add this new division. Which is probably what's happening anyway.

 

[Racinready300ex]

57 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I wish they'd try harder. I'm sure it was funny the first time but it gets kind of old after a while.

 

I think what got old was every other day someone was asking "is A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want competitive?" or "why isn't A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want it's own division?" etc, etc. for years. At some point a thread was probably locked due to our bickering and that change was made to make a point out of it.

 

At least, that's how I interpreted it. 

[Solairefastora]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think you're on the right track. Most people who practice start out with draws and reloads. Some never really get past just working those things. Youtube and the gram are full of spicy reloads. I don't think it's really that people can't reload, that's more just what people who shoot low cap like to say to feel superior.

 

Stages over time have become vary hosey, and more and more shots from one position. This isn't super fun even with a hi-cap gun but it can be down right annoying with a low cap gun. Back when production was one of the biggest divisions stages had a different flavor to them. I am starting to see thing move back that way some. At the same time I'm seeing shots getting harder, probably because more stage designers have dots on their guns. This will push people into optic divisions. A 20 yard head box is basically impossible for a C class production shooter.

 

Another issue is everyone talks about a fantasy division and looking at the overall to see how they improved. Well, hicap guns finish higher in the overall. So if most people judge their finish based on the OA they are going to migrate toward hicap divisions. I think Practiscore is partially to blame for this.

Really good points overall. I think another issue is that the more hardcore and dedicated members of the sport are more willing to deal with certain niggles and inconveniences (having to do standing reloads in Prod) that a new person joining the sport might just up and say “this is stupid I’m shooting hi-cap” in response to.

 

I can definitely understand the hesitation to dumb down the sport in the name of participation trophies or being inclusive, but I think sometimes people swing too hard to the other side of the pendulum and think if people aren’t willing to deal with some of the negative aspects of divisions older people have gotten used to they just aren’t “hardcore enough.”

 

At the end of the day this is a game, and games usually involve a thing scientifically referred to as ‘fun.’ People shooting matches aren’t (usually) tactical superoperators honing their skills to shoot guns overseas at a foreign threat. Most of us just like “pew pew on paper and occasionally steel.” Sometimes it can be hard in our minds to strike a balance between fun and keeping things competitive/preserving the traditional aspects of the sport. A famous man once said, “if it’s not fun, why bother?”

Edited January 6, 2023 by Solairefastora
Local man needs to clarify point and be a little less exaggerated

[Fishbreath]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Nothing will, it's more just a way to throw you a bone instead of just saying piss off and go shoot you're own sport. 

 

If we're talking about throwing bones, we could always leave the division alone.

 

I would argue that there are axes along which Revolver is more popular than L10, too. I have a big dataset of level 2 matches since 2019, and checked the average number of stages shot by shooters in that dataset per division—a measure of the average dedication of shooters in that division. Since 2019, the average revolver shooter who has been to at least one major match has shot 28 major match stages, against 29 for Single Stack, 31 for Production, and 19 for L10. Participation in Revolver is lower for sure, but L10 is the clear loser in intensity of participation.

 

(Open shooters are the most dedicated, averaging 48—13 more stages per shooter than CO, which comes in second.)

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Solairefastora said:

Really good points overall. I think another issue is that the more hardcore and dedicated members of the sport are more willing to deal with certain niggles and inconveniences (having to do 2 standing reloads in Prod) that a new person joining the sport might just up and say “this is stupid I’m shooting hi-cap” in response to.

 

I can definitely understand the hesitation to dumb down the sport in the name of participation trophies or being inclusive, but I think sometimes people swing too hard to the other side of the pendulum and think if people aren’t willing to deal with some of the negative aspects of divisions older people have gotten used to they just aren’t “hardcore enough.”

 

At the end of the day this is a game, and games usually involve a thing scientifically referred to as ‘fun.’ People shooting matches aren’t (usually) tactical superoperators honing their skills to shoot guns overseas at a foreign threat. Most of us just like “pew pew on paper and occasionally steel.” Sometimes it can be hard in our minds to strike a balance between fun and keeping things competitive/preserving the traditional aspects of the sport. A famous man once said, “if it’s not fun, why bother?”

 

Another thing that turns me off some if just needing so many damn mags. When I shot SS I had 5 on my belt and if I was shooting in the rain and mud I spent a lot of time cleaning mags. I like reloading, it's a skill I probably practice to much for being a high cap shooter. But needing 5 mags and 5 pouches and all that cleaning between stages is a PAI. Go from that to shooting PCC where you never drop a mag in the dirt and I didn't even bother to wear a belt 99% of the time. 

 

140's are a nice middle ground, you still reload on most stages and only have one mag to clean. And can get away with only owning 2 mags if you need to.

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

If we're talking about throwing bones, we could always leave the division alone.

 

I would argue that there are axes along which Revolver is more popular than L10, too. I have a big dataset of level 2 matches since 2019, and checked the average number of stages shot by shooters in that dataset per division—a measure of the average dedication of shooters in that division. Since 2019, the average revolver shooter who has been to at least one major match has shot 28 major match stages, against 29 for Single Stack, 31 for Production, and 19 for L10. Participation in Revolver is lower for sure, but L10 is the clear loser in intensity of participation.

 

(Open shooters are the most dedicated, averaging 48—13 more stages per shooter than CO, which comes in second.)

 

I did say we'll probably just leave the divisions alone and that L10 might be less popular than Revo. It's not scientific, but I've shot major matches with no L10 shooters, there is typically at least one nut with a wheel gun.

 

It certainly doesn't make sense to me to talk about killing production or SS due to low participation (rolling them into L10 is the same as killing) if we're not going to talk about killing revolver. It should either be all on the table or none of it. So we should probably just leave it all alone. 

[Solairefastora]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Another thing that turns me off some if just needing so many damn mags. When I shot SS I had 5 on my belt and if I was shooting in the rain and mud I spent a lot of time cleaning mags. I like reloading, it's a skill I probably practice to much for being a high cap shooter. But needing 5 mags and 5 pouches and all that cleaning between stages is a PAI. Go from that to shooting PCC where you never drop a mag in the dirt and I didn't even bother to wear a belt 99% of the time. 

 

140's are a nice middle ground, you still reload on most stages and only have one mag to clean. And can get away with only owning 2 mags if you need to.

This even brings me back to my 3-gun analogy, at the end of the day people just enjoy putting lead down range. Stuff that requires administrative attention (cleaning mags) takes away from the pew pew.

 

Sometimes a lack of perspective prevents people from understanding why people are tired of administrative hassles and just want to shoot guns for fun (why is my 3-gun dying????)

 

Again, not trying to be antagonistic or put people down but just trying to add some humor to my little strawman (look he has a funny hat)

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Another thing that turns me off some if just needing so many damn mags. When I shot SS I had 5 on my belt and if I was shooting in the rain and mud I spent a lot of time cleaning mags. I like reloading, it's a skill I probably practice to much for being a high cap shooter. But needing 5 mags and 5 pouches and all that cleaning between stages is a PAI. Go from that to shooting PCC where you never drop a mag in the dirt and I didn't even bother to wear a belt 99% of the time. 

 

140's are a nice middle ground, you still reload on most stages and only have one mag to clean. And can get away with only owning 2 mags if you need to.

 

That is a good point, at least for me, that I had not thought of. 

It's one of those things that at first blush is not that big a deal.

But after a while it starts to bug you. At least for me anyway.

 

It's sort of like when you start reloading for volume. Initially it's all brand new and fun and games.

Then time goes by and eventually all those lever pulls become rather obnoxious.

And then you buy an Ammobot  or Mark 7 if you are reloading or a red dot and some 141.25s if you are shooting.

Edited January 6, 2023 by ddc

[MHicks]

Shooting SS I have enough mags that when one gets too dirty I set it aside and replace it with a clean one. Usually no more then one mag per stage requires that. With my hicap Limited mags I pretty much need to clean one if it hits the ground.

 

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Another thing that turns me off some if just needing so many damn mags. When I shot SS I had 5 on my belt and if I was shooting in the rain and mud I spent a lot of time cleaning mags. 

Back in the old days when just about everyone was shooting 1911 .45's then stages were a lot smaller than they are today. 
 

The reason that you spend so much time cleaning magazines is that most stages require many reloads.
 

Again, I think stage design is the biggest driver of division participation. 

[Racinready300ex]

36 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Shooting SS I have enough mags that when one gets too dirty I set it aside and replace it with a clean one. Usually no more then one mag per stage requires that. With my hicap Limited mags I pretty much need to clean one if it hits the ground.

 

 

I like that plan. Of course if it's only 1 mag per stage for a major you'll need 15 mags or so. A p320 you could have more money in mags than the gun. At $50 ea. that's $750

 

The times it really got to me was shooting in the rain at majors. 10 stages, mostly high round count, using a 9mm gun and the mags had a spacer in them. Cleaning 3 or 4 mags a stage was a nightmare. But, the average club match it didn't really matter. Cleaning one 140 is a cake walk in comparison. 

[rowdyb]

Most new shooters know ZERO about the rules. Division, stage design or shooting. Let alone the nuance between a stage favoring high cap over low cap with their attending strategies by division. 

 

It's not until aafftteerr they're new shooters that anything makes sense. And sometimes not then....

 

So why makes rules for or focused on new shooters when they don't know them anyway?

[MikeBurgess]

8 hours ago, Makicjf said:

If we apply reason, I'd say four items actually provide an advantage for equal skilled shooters.  In no particular order, they would be:

1)Capacity

2)Optic

3)Compensators

4)Power Factor

 

Ill add to your list and put it in order

 

Not a revolver

Optic

Capacity over 16

Major PF

Capacity over 24

capacity over 30

Compensator

Magwell

Single action trigger

 

 

 

 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Most new shooters know ZERO about the rules. Division, stage design or shooting. Let alone the nuance between a stage favoring high cap over low cap with their attending strategies by division. 

 

It's not until aafftteerr they're new shooters that anything makes sense. And sometimes not then....

 

So why makes rules for or focused on new shooters when they don't know them anyway?

 

For the same reason NASCAR caters to people who want to try auto racing and bases car rules on what is selling at the local Ford dealership.  Oh wait

Edited January 7, 2023 by deerslayer

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 

For the same reason NASCAR caters to people who want to try auto racing and bases car rules on what is selling at the local Ford dealership.  Oh wait

 

Not the Ford dealership.  Cars in nascar gotta make 500 miles, that rules fords out

[deerslayer]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Not the Ford dealership.  Cars in nascar gotta make 500 miles, that rules fords out

Ok Toyota dealership.  

[Solairefastora]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Most new shooters know ZERO about the rules. Division, stage design or shooting. Let alone the nuance between a stage favoring high cap over low cap with their attending strategies by division. 

 

It's not until aafftteerr they're new shooters that anything makes sense. And sometimes not then....

 

So why makes rules for or focused on new shooters when they don't know them anyway?

That's definitely a fair point, but I think there needs to be a distinction between a rule specifically designed to help newer shooters (not exactly sure what you're referring to, I hopefully correctly assume a larger mag cap in Prod) and one that helps both new and older shooters but helps newer shooters more. 

 

More specifically in regard to your point, just because newer shooters don't know the rules doesn't mean they can't be negatively affected by them. There is also some credence to the idea of accessibility. Although one could easily argue that people who want to dedicate themselves hardcore to the sport will self-start and sift through all the rules by themselves, simplifying them to a certain extent (as long as it doesn't affect competitive integrity) just saves a gear check hassle.

 

 

[Solairefastora]

I am curious about one thing though, for those who say that newer shooters can easily do something like shoot leemeeted meener if they're starting out, couldn't the same concept be done in reverse?

 

If someone has been shooting for awhile, why can't they just shoot a self-imposed 10 rd Open/Limited/CO? Not trying to antagonize anyone, but I think that if individuals facing both questions (why not shoot lim minor or shoot 10 rd open) answer them honestly, we'll see a bit of an overlap of ideology.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Solairefastora
the fudgesicle thing