Production Div. & Mag Release Length?

[ExtremeShot]

I've got an XD for Production and I've seen several "Production Legal" extended mag releases which have the same over all length but have been modified to allow one side to be longer and the other, weak side to be shorter. .....I've even made a few myself on my mill.

The question is, where exactly does it say that these modified mag releases are LEGAL? Rule 21.5 says "External modification other than sights not allowed." How is this not an external modification? ....I just don't want to show up to a match someday and have someone DQ me because of my mod'ed release.

Thanks,

Darren

PS: ....I'm really not looking for answers like, " They never check so don't worry about it." Even though they may not check, I want to be legal. Thx!

Edited December 13, 2005 by ExtremeShot

[Vlad]

The short answer is that they are not legal. The factory may offer and extended mag release and then you can switch the existing one with the extended one. But you can not modify the shape of either.

[Kevin Kline]

Basically, if it doesnt come on the gun from the factory or is a part being made and offered by the factory, it isnt allowed, with the small exception of sights and grip tape.

[ExtremeShot]

It appears the SA Custom Shop offers an extended magazine....so, I guess as long as these other extended magazines are made exactly like the release from the SA Custom shop, then it's legal???

DM

[eerw]

my understanding is still no..

you cannot make a part to look like another part..you have to use the OEM/OFM part..

example: you could not take a G17 mag release and build it up with epoxy to the same length as a G34 mag release..you have to replace with the G34 release...even though they would be the same length.

it would be considered an external modification...

[Flexmoney]

It appears the SA Custom Shop offers an extended magazine....so, I guess as long as these other extended magazines are made exactly like the release from the SA Custom shop, then it's legal???

No, that is not true either.

Just because it comes from the factory doesn't make it legal (especially so if it is "custom"). It needs to be a stock part on your gun...OR, it needs to be a stock part from another gun that also qualifies as Production legal. (for USPSA Production)

BTW, the penalty isn't a DQ. The Range Master would be required to put you in Open division (per the rule book).

Edited December 13, 2005 by Flexmoney

[ExtremeShot]

If all this is true, then the Canyon Creek and Bo-Sto extended releases are also NOT legal. .....I've specifically asked if their releases were legal, and they said they were.

Maybe they meant that they are legal as long as you don't get caught?

DM

It appears the SA Custom Shop offers an extended magazine....so, I guess as long as these other extended magazines are made exactly like the release from the SA Custom shop, then it's legal???

No, that is not true either.

Just because it comes from the factory doesn't make it legal (especially so if it is "custom"). It needs to be a stock part on your gun...OR, it needs to be a stock part from another gun that also qualifies as Production legal. (for USPSA Production)

BTW, the penalty isn't a DQ. The Range Master would be required to put you in Open division (per the rule book).

[j2fast]

What if you make an internal mod to your ambidextrous release that sets it out more to one side or the other?? Would this technically be internal since that's where you are making the mods even though the results could be viewed as external since it makes the release sticks out further to one side when you're done??

[sfinney]

Ok, my untrained, uneducated take on this is this: the modified stock parts would be illegal in USPSA due to the catch now sticking further out to one side than the other - an externally visible modification, regardless if the maching is done internally. A stock OAL length catch with that long/short configuration is not available from the factory.

The Canyon Creek mag catch would be illegal, as 1) its not available on a factory gun 2) it looks different, serrations on the ends, so its an extrnal modification in any case.

The Bar-sto release is offered by Springfield from the factory on any XD as an orderable item, before they ship it.... just like Glock will sell you an extended mag release on any Glock. Its factory available, not just "custom shop", to the best of my knowledge. So it should be legal, even though its the longest of the available catches.

Maybe Rich or Bob would want to chime in here and give us their take on the matter

[Steve Moneypenny]

anything "custom" isn't legal in production.

The internal modification may be legal, but you can see the difference externally so how could it be legal?

[RIIID]

I have two mag releases one with serrations (not legal for Production/ legal for IDPA). The other is the factory release internally shifted. It sticks out the same overall distance as the factory just one side is longer than the other. An area director has told me that it is an internal mod and would fight to the death if someone says other wise.

I know others have and will view this differently than I but, this is the gray area of the Production rules. I could make a front sight that sticks out 1" past the front of the slide to give a 6" sight radius legal or not. "Performance Center and Custom Shop parts" are they part of the factory? Thus making them legal. No where in the rules does it say they are illegal.

The criteria for what constitutes what is legal and what is not needs to be spelled out in black and white for all to see with no gray area. Not just what the BOD or John A. thinks it is.

I will still say the release is legal under the current published rules and interpretations will always very.

For the last three years a majority of the top shooters in Production have wanted a set of "iron clad" rules for Production. This would end all of the speculation of what is and what isn't legal.

Rich

P.S. I would love to see an equipment check at the Nationals at lest once.

[Flexmoney]

Rich,

I agree completely that the Production rules need a solid "going over" for clarity. And, they need to be enforced. I fear that ship is adrift, however.

On the mod you are speaking of...I don't know what it is, but it sure sounds like it isn't legal. Is it a measurable difference on the external dimensions of the gun? (I am guessing that it is, as that would be the reason to go to the trouble...?)

[diehli]

The other is the factory release internally shifted. It sticks out the same overall distance as the factory just one side is longer than the other. An area director has told me that it is an internal mod and would fight to the death if someone says other wise.

That's my reaction to it, too. Look at the Vanek Glock triggers. If you look at the trigger itself, there has been an "external" modification to it. Likewise with your mag release. I'd say it's legal. It's one of those internal modifications that manifests itself externally, but is not an external modification.

[Gary Stevens]

Well my 2 cents, OK maybe 3 cents, is our rules allow for "internal" modifications. The rules do not say anything about such modifications being visible from the outside of the gun. What Rich, and maybe others, do is machine work completely on the "inside" of the gun. Yes it shifts the mag release about .250 of an inch one way or the other and is visible from the outside, but the "modification" is "internal". If someone installs an "internal" trigger stop that is somehow visible by peeking up into the trigger housing, it might be visible, but it remains "internal".

I realize this, as with most discussions in USPSA, revolved around how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin. My opinion is only my opinion, but I will go down swinging with it.

Gary

Edited December 14, 2005 by Gary Stevens

[Flexmoney]

Gary,

You seem to have some insight on this mod. It sure sounds like the creation of an extended mag release. Does that sound right?

If the mag release is sticking out an extra 0.250, then that is external. How could it be otherwise?

Cullen, you make a good point about the Glock triggers.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Flexmoney]

I think this one has been pretty much addressed with a recent NROI Ruling (Official..not just opinion).

I won't copy the whole question that lead to this interpretation (it on the USPSA website), but the basis was putting in a different mag release than came on the gun.

Interpretation:

US Appendix D9 Production Division 21.5 "External modifications other than sights not allowed." This clause is not meant to prohibit exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model handgun. Exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model handgun from the same manufacturer is allowed, providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts and offered in their catalogs or on their handguns that otherwise meet division criteria. The following original manufacturer parts may be exchanged: Extended mag release, extended slide stop and external safeties including ambidextrious, provided they stay within the intent of the division. No added weights, no mag well attachments, no thumb rest or external devices used to help reduce recoil and/or muzzle flip may be exchanged.

We have seen similar questions, such as...

- The Langdon "Speed Bump" trigger. Which was a replacement trigger (internal mod) that resulted in an external mod (it had a "bump" on the rear of the trigger that served as an over-travel stop).

Edited December 14, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Gary Stevens]

Adding one more Angel to the head of the pin, the speed bump trigger had a "bump" which would be a "modification" added to the back of the trigger which was external to the gun and was illegal by rule. The actual "modification" to the magazine release in the above thread is internal and IMO legal. Of course JA makes the decision on the specific questions subject to BOD approval, and I don't think this specific question has been brought up yet.

Gary

[Flexmoney]

I can't possible see how doing "custom" work to the gun that results in an extended mag release could be legal for Production.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Flexmoney

[RIIID]

Flex,

The release is the factory part that comes with the gun, the length isn't increased.

Set adrift in the Horse Latitudes,

Rich

[ExtremeShot]

Rich,

I haven't seen one of your mag releases. Are you saying that you are milling a larger slot in THE same factory part that comes with the gun? ....not making a completely NEW part that just happens to be similar? With a larger slot, the release would drift and not remain in the same place. Is this what you mean by "set adrift in the horse latitudes"?

Darren

Flex,

The release is the factory part that comes with the gun, the length isn't increased.

Set adrift in the Horse Latitudes,

Rich

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm just curious what's wrong with the Vanek triggers. The only external difference that I see is that the trigger starts further back along the same travel path. I know Ken Ja had to take his out at Nationals last year but my understanding was that was because the trigger safety didn't work. If I'm missing something let me know.

As far as the extended mag release. Since Springfield offers Custom Shop guns, and they are listed on the US List, same number, unless they have features that are considered evil, like the stippled grip and beavertail. And the part is offered in the catalog, it should be legal to replace the extended mag release. Yes it's splitting hairs but it's no worse than the asinine decision that IPSC makes to favor certain gun designs, CZ, at the expense of others, Glock, by not allowing fiber optic. And this is from a guy that wouldn't use an FO sight if I had the choice.

[shred]

So would putting in a barrel that sticks out an extra half inch be an internal or external mod then?

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

The release is the factory part that comes with the gun, the length isn't increased.

Set adrift in the Horse Latitudes,

Rich

You are modifying the part, right?

Which results in an extended mag release...an externally measurable modification?

And, for the purpose of making the gun easier to run than it would be in it's stock configuration, correct?

If that is the case, than I am sorry. I can't see that as being Production legal. If the call would come my way I would have to put the shooter in Open. Unless NROI comes out with an official interpretation that says you can specifically do this (which would open the flood gates for other mods, I'd think), then I can't see it any other way.

So would putting in a barrel that sticks out an extra half inch be an internal or external mod then?

I had to take the G24 barrel out of my LIMITED gun (G35) for that reason.

[RIIID]

The release is the factory part, it is not a new part. The part comes with the gun, the mod is done internally. The part functions as the way it came from the factory being ambidextrous. The part is not lenghtened.

There are trigger jobs that are legal according to the rules. When the trigger job is completed the trigger it's self is closer to the hand. It's not in the position that it came from the factory. Should it make them illegal?

There are guns with interchangable back strap inserts from the factory to give the best fit for the shooters hand should this be allowed.If allowed should the shooter shoot it with the insert that was put on at the factory.

Horse Latitude is referance to the rules. HL is where there is little wind and in the old days sail ships would get caught in these latitude and would go nowhere.

Also the Doors did a song about it.

Rich

Edited December 14, 2005 by RIIID

[sfinney]

Rich do you have the factory "modded" releases in-stock, or do I send you mine?

(I have a Bar-sto release I can stick in the gun till it gets back if that the case. )

I would prefer your shorter stock looking release than the Bar-sto, it sticks WAY out, to far IMHO.

I agree we need more concrete rules in Production.... as long as there is any vagueness, we will always have this argument over what legal and whats not. Just spell it out and be done with it.