Stafford Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Long drive tonight and I thought of a hypothetical question. Let’s say you started outside the shooting area, and could to run to the fault line to enter the shooting area. Could you leap/jump into the shooting area and fire shots at targets before physically making contact with your feet in the shooting area? Your body would physically be inside the fault lines before making the shots. I can’t think of a a legitimate reason where this could be advantageous, but I didn’t get into figuring out possible scenarios where it might be a good idea. My main question is does some part of the body have to make contact within the shooting area in order to be “inside” the shooting area. Does physical contact have to be established? This is basically the opposite of leaping out of the shooting and firing off a couple before touching the ground outside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 10.2.1.2 deals with re-establishing contact inside a shooting area, but I don't see anything that deals with initial establishment inside of shooting area, so I don't really know. I figure 10.2.1.2 is what people would use to say you couldn't do it, but that's not really what it says and I didn't see anything that's specifically prohibited shooting once you were initially floating over the shooting area. I could have definitely missed it if it's in there though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Quit watching Kita videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 1 hour ago, rowdyb said: Quit watching Kita videos What?? Shooting while going into the spits isn't practical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Ha! Actually it is a rather interesting question. I can imagine/foresee someone doing it. I'll guess/speculate that it would not be legal since the shooter has yet to establish being in the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Fault lines and the area within then are a bound, usually a single plane. They do not project a plane perpendicular to the ground up in the air. Was I behind the invisible line or not is old school idpa haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 You can certainly shoot outside the fault line as long as your feet are in the air. We've all seen and done that on a hard angle on the last target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 2 hours ago, RangerTrace said: You can certainly shoot outside the fault line as long as your feet are in the air. We've all seen and done that on a hard angle on the last target. But you were inside by definition prior to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 This is kind of a far-fetched scenario but here is my take. The start position is outside the shooting area. The start position is a location. The shooter is supposed to engage the targets from the shooting area. The shooting area is comprised of one or more locations. From A3 "Location A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position." Since air is not a location, the feet have to be on the ground to commence shooting without penalty. That would be my CRO/RM call. Wanna roll $100 on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Starting outside the shooting area and jumping in means you never established position inside the area. it’s the reverse of the jumping from inside to outside. That’s legal because you were in until you’re out. there fore if you’re in until you’re out you’re out until you’re in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varminter22 Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 25 minutes ago, Nathanb said: Starting outside the shooting area and jumping in means you never established position inside the area. it’s the reverse of the jumping from inside to outside. That’s legal because you were in until you’re out. there fore if you’re in until you’re out you’re out until you’re in I think you said it best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 (edited) 20 hours ago, Stafford said: Long drive tonight and I thought of a hypothetical question. Let’s say you started outside the shooting area, and could to run to the fault line to enter the shooting area. Could you leap/jump into the shooting area and fire shots at targets before physically making contact with your feet in the shooting area? Your body would physically be inside the fault lines before making the shots. I can’t think of a a legitimate reason where this could be advantageous, but I didn’t get into figuring out possible scenarios where it might be a good idea. My main question is does some part of the body have to make contact within the shooting area in order to be “inside” the shooting area. Does physical contact have to be established? This is basically the opposite of leaping out of the shooting and firing off a couple before touching the ground outside the shooting area. If you do that in my stage you will get either one procedural or, depending on the exact circumstances, one per shot fired until you re-establish location inside the shooting area. 10.2.1.3 was written to cover exactly what you're talking about. And 10.2.1.2 defines exactly what it takes to establish location inside the shooting area. Being inside the fault lines with the feet in the air is not enough. Edited November 24, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 12 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: If you do that in my stage you will get either one procedural or, depending on the exact circumstances, one per shot fired until you re-establish location inside the shooting area. 10.2.1.3 was written to cover exactly what you're talking about. And 10.2.1.2 defines exactly what it takes to establish location inside the shooting area. Being inside the fault lines with the feet in the air is not enough. Perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, ChuckS said: Perfect! The more I play this game the less I care about both equipment and technique gimmicks. Fast and efficient movement plus mastery of marksmanship is what wins. Edited November 24, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 This is the simplest way to understand being "In" or "Out" of the shooting area. Basically put, if you were "Outside" then you maintain that status until you are "Inside" and that doesn't include movement above yet not touching the shooting area. 1 - To be "Inside" the shooting area, no body part can be touching "Outside" of the shooting area. 2 - Once being "Inside" the shooting area has been achieved, that status is maintained until any body part touches "Outside" of the shooting area. 3 - Once being "Outside" the shooting area has been achieved, that status is maintained until no body part is touching "Outside" of the shooting area while another body part is touching "Inside" the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 ^^ if you read and think about the above, the answer should be clear. I had a stage at area one in Salt Lake several years ago with multiple shooting areas and we gave some procedurals to people who fired shots before reestablishing their position in the shooting area. They were in the air in mid leap from the bridge to the ground, but they had stepped on the frame of the bridge outside the shooting area to start their jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 You are “out” until you are “in”. Jumping up from “out” does not make you “in”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 Just being honest, y'all are starting to sound like 75 year old IDPA SO's..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 9 hours ago, RangerTrace said: Just being honest, y'all are starting to sound like 75 year old IDPA SO's..... What I like about these threads is they end up in the USPSA blog post for rules with an official ruling from nroi. That way there is something on record for a ruling and it helps further the capabilities of range officers. As you can see there is a lot of discussion on these things so it’s nice to get that feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, Nathanb said: What I like about these threads is they end up in the USPSA blog post for rules with an official ruling from nroi. That way there is something on record for a ruling and it helps further the capabilities of range officers. As you can see there is a lot of discussion on these things so it’s nice to get that feedback yeah, but no one needs an official ruling from nroi on this. The rules are crystal clear, and you have posts confirming it from an RMI, and from a very experienced CRO who's dealt with this exact situation at a major match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 9 hours ago, RangerTrace said: Just being honest, y'all are starting to sound like 75 year old IDPA SO's..... except we know how to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 10 hours ago, RangerTrace said: Just being honest, y'all are starting to sound like 75 year old IDPA SO's..... We know our rules and those rules are what they are to avoid as much subjectivity as possible. The exact opposite of what I've seen in IDPA, on both counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 42 minutes ago, Nathanb said: What I like about these threads is they end up in the USPSA blog post for rules with an official ruling from nroi. That way there is something on record for a ruling and it helps further the capabilities of range officers. As you can see there is a lot of discussion on these things so it’s nice to get that feedback The rules on this issue are crystal clear, even though not everyone may know what they are. Bring a hundo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 18 hours ago, CHA-LEE said: This is the simplest way to understand being "In" or "Out" of the shooting area. Basically put, if you were "Outside" then you maintain that status until you are "Inside" and that doesn't include movement above yet not touching the shooting area. 1 - To be "Inside" the shooting area, no body part can be touching "Outside" of the shooting area. 2 - Once being "Inside" the shooting area has been achieved, that status is maintained until any body part touches "Outside" of the shooting area. 3 - Once being "Outside" the shooting area has been achieved, that status is maintained until no body part is touching "Outside" of the shooting area while another body part is touching "Inside" the shooting area. I think this pretty much nails it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 2 hours ago, motosapiens said: yeah, but no one needs an official ruling from nroi on this. The rules are crystal clear, and you have posts confirming it from an RMI, and from a very experienced CRO who's dealt with this exact situation at a major match. Normally I would agree. However I’ve seen enough shooters do somethign trying to gain an advantage that I cannot say someone wouldn’t argue this and be so bold and so confident that they are right to lend enough doubt to the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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