motosapiens Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I don't think anyone really wants to add major to existing CO. True, and almost nobody wants to add SA guns to the existing CO. But if there's going to be a new division created, it makes sense to look at all options. I know that's not the preferred outcome of the SA advocates, because they are obviously hoping to get a competitive advantage (for a while) in an existing division, but it seems by far to be the most likely outcome. On the PF topic, the whole point is stupid. The whole reason people's expensive guns are breaking is because they made them too light and fragile, chasing the last bit of performance. If pf is lowered, they'll just make them even lighter-er and fragile-er and they'll still break. That's the point of race-only non-practical divisions.... to push the limits, break lots of stuff, and cost lots of money. It's no different in motorsports, for example. I'm pretty sure it's possible (and maybe even not that hard) to build an open gun that will hold up to many tens of thousands of rounds, but then it will probably feel clunky compared to the latest unobtainium wunder-model. Edited November 23, 2022 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 4 minutes ago, motosapiens said: because they are obviously hoping to get a competitive advantage Who has INDICATED this ever? We have been asking what difference would it make in the standings or in CO in general? If you think a Trigger would make a difference to give people a competitive advantage you are on Crack. The sport is mostly about movement, transitions, stage planning, etc. SA guns are already allowed in DA/SA guns in CZs and Tanfos, yet those do not proliferate the top of the standings at any match. SO where is the competitive advantage again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: SO where is the competitive advantage again? in *every* division where SAO guns are allowed, they overwhelmingly dominate the division, and virtually no one who isn't being paid to do so competes with anything else. Go count the guns at the next open or limited nationals if you don't believe me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said: Who has INDICATED this ever? We have been asking what difference would it make in the standings or in CO in general? If you think a Trigger would make a difference to give people a competitive advantage you are on Crack. The sport is mostly about movement, transitions, stage planning, etc. SA guns are already allowed in DA/SA guns in CZs and Tanfos, yet those do not proliferate the top of the standings at any match. SO where is the competitive advantage again? To be fair, this thread is solely focused on the shooting part not any of that other stuff. I don't think anyone thinks a 2011 will make them a better stage planner. But they might think it'll keep them from pushing those random low left shots. And typically a heavy soft shooting gun with a light trigger can help mitigate crappy fundamentals. And like moto pointed out most of the broken open guns wouldn't break if they would sacrifice a ounce of performance for reliability. Why don't they? Would a little heavier slide really effect their match performance? Apparently gun builders think we want maximum performance at all costs. Why will CO be different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, motosapiens said: they overwhelmingly dominate the division, So how does that give any particular shooter a competitive advantage? Please by all means ignore the other aspects of the sport other than the trigger. And you STILL have never answered if SA triggers give you such a HUGE competitive advantage and why are the top of the standing NOT dominated by CZs and Tanfos in CO and Production. I will still wait for the answer you never provide to that question. Edited November 23, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said: And typically a heavy soft shooting gun with a light trigger can help mitigate crappy fundamentals. So an SA trigger benefits marginal shooters, like I have indicated before. How does that make a difference in the standings again? I will also ask you the same question. IF the make all the difference then how do SA triggers give you such a HUGE competitive advantage and why are the top of the standing NOT dominated by CZs and Tanfos in CO and Production. You have never answered this questions ever as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said: So an SA trigger benefits marginal shooters, like I have indicated before. How does that make a difference in the standings again? I will also ask you the same question. IF the make all the difference then how do SA triggers give you such a HUGE competitive advantage and why are the top of the standing NOT dominated by CZs and Tanfos in CO and Production. You have never answered this questions ever as well. So, you have indicated before SA benefits some shooters. Yet you don't see how that can effect the standings? Did you know marginal shooters are also included in the standings? In fact the vast majority of shooters at a match are marginal shooters. I'm thinking about how this effect them, not how it effects Nils. I personally don't care at all what guys who are paid to shoot certain guns do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 24 minutes ago, motosapiens said: where SAO guns are allowed, they overwhelmingly dominate the division, By this logic everyone should be shooting CZs and Tanfos in CO correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: So how does that give any particular shooter a competitive advantage? Please by all means ignore the other aspects of the sport other than the trigger. And you STILL have never answered if SA triggers give you such a HUGE competitive advantage and why are the top of the standing NOT dominated by CZs and Tanfos in CO and Production. I will still wait for the answer you never provide to that question. Avoiding your disingenuous use of the word 'huge', are you really trying to argue that the majority of shooters choose to spend twice as much money for something that is not a competitive advantage? secondly, are you really trying to argue that a da/sa trigger is the same thing as an SAO trigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Yet you don't see how that can effect the standings? Did you know marginal shooters are also included in the standings? No, I cannot since the trigger pull will NOT fix their other deficiencies that matter way more. But you live in that world where you think it does. You still have NOT answered why CZs and Tanfos are all at the top of the standings since it SA triggers make all the difference in the world and the standings? Like I said before I will wait for you to never address that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I'm pretty sure it's possible (and maybe even not that hard) to build an open gun that will hold up to many tens of thousands of rounds, but then it will probably feel clunky compared to the latest unobtainium wunder-model. Of course it is. I've done it three times, and none of them are clunky. A properly lightened 10.5 oz. Open slide will last forever, as long as you spring the gun properly. Go ultra-light and use a 7 lb. recoil spring and you ARE asking for trouble. BTW, I shoot with a guy who has been shooting the exact same Open gun for the last 12 years. Edited November 23, 2022 by zzt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: By this logic everyone should be shooting CZs and Tanfos in CO correct? I can't tell if you are playing dumb/trolling or not. The post you quoted specifically used the term SAO. The cz's and tanfo's people use in CO are not SAO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: secondly, are you really trying to argue that a da/sa trigger is the same thing as an SAO trigger? Are you suggesting 5-12 trigger pulls a match make a huge difference? Edited November 23, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Just now, Boomstick303 said: Are you suggesting 5-12 trigger pulls a match make a huge differnce? again, it would help if we had an honest discussion. I never used the word 'huge'. I am not suggesting, I am pointing out what is obvious to any honest person. SAO triggers are a significant competitive advantage, and that's why they utterly dominate in every division that allows them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Just now, Boomstick303 said: No, I cannot since the trigger pull will NOT fix their other deficiencies that matter way more. But you live in that world where you think it does. You still have NOT answered why CZs and Tanfos are all at the top of the standings since it SA triggers make all the difference in the world and the standings? Like I said before I will wait for you to never address that question. Why answer your question? You can deny reality so what will anything I say matter? You can't imagine a world where there are shooters so good that companies will pay them to win just to sell product. If a s#!t shooter gets 1 more alpha because of a better gun the standings have changed but you can't even see that as a possibility because you want to shoot a SAO gun that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: the majority of shooters choose to spend twice as much money for something that is not a competitive advantage? They shoot those guns because they choose to not because they are forced to. I am assuming we are discussing Limited here in that we all know Plastics guns do not survive in open. Something that is completely ignored in this conversation is the history of Limited. 2011s for a long time were the only viable competitive gun in the at division due to what was available the time. Do you agree with this premise or not? That being the case many bought 2011s because they "thought" that what was required to compete. The reason 2011s proliferate Limited now is because of what people think or the type of gun they prefer to shoot, not because they are force to nowadays, but you can have whatever opinion you want on the subject. It is not because of the trigger. It is based mostly on perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, motosapiens said: SAO triggers are a significant competitive advantage, and that's why they utterly dominate in every division that allows them. With the exception of a few trigger pulls like CZs and Tanfos do in CO. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: If a s#!t shooter gets 1 more alpha because of a better gun the standings have changed but you can't even see that as a possibility because you want to shoot a SAO gun that bad. Comical. I don't care if they are allowed if they are ever allowed in CO, but to say they will change anything in the big scope of things in CO is disingenuous. You can keep denying that reality. Sounds like a C or B class shooter that is worried about missing out on a trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Your words. 17 minutes ago, motosapiens said: again, it would help if we had an honest discussion. I never used the word 'huge'. I am not suggesting, I am pointing out what is obvious to any honest person. SAO triggers are a significant competitive advantage, and that's why they utterly dominate in every division that allows them. So 5 triggers pulls in a local match and few more in Level 2 and up matches are not a Huge difference, but somehow SA triggers for the rest of the stage is a significant competitive advantage that makes all the difference? Got it. CZ and Tanfo will be happy when CO is all CZs and Tanfos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 The funniest part of Moto's stance on this is that several times over the years he has stated that (paraphrasing here) "single stack and production would be fine to be combined because the scores are the same between the two with the same shooters." (Once again I was paraphrasing, I don't claim that to be an exact quote and I'm not going back to look it up, but that is 100% the gist of what he has said) It's odd to me that he would admit that the scores are identical in that case of Sao versus "production" style guns, but somehow in carryops it completely changes the outcome. PS I know he has said that about production and single stack, because I have agreed with him on several occasions on that premise.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: Not at all. I am pointing out we do not know what was said, who is involved or anything really. But I guess we can speculate all we want. Who has done this and what rules have been changed to suit any manufacturers whims or wishes? I agree with the premise of your comment, but I am still asking when has the board made a rule change that would back up such a claim? SA guns have existed for some time now, what product are these companies creating that is being pushed onto USPSA? I am still super confused. You made this comment did you not? What rules have been changed by USPSA in this way? I am asking for any rule not SA in CO. Your comment indicates USPSA does this all of the time or am I taking this quote out of context? You love asking for proof from everyone Where's your proof that 2011s are the most popular pistols now? After all that's the basis of your whole argument to let them in CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 The trigger on a CZ da/sa when in single action mode after the initial DA first shot is not the same as the trigger on a SAO gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Just now, Johnny_Chimpo said: Where's your proof that 2011s are the most popular pistols now? No, that has not been my argument, but please by all means put words in my mouth. Please pull that up where I said it and I will own it. I have mentioned if they did allow 2011s in CO it might bring about more 2011 manufacturers that would give the end user better price points. Seems like a win for us. My argument has been what would it change in CO? How does an SA trigger change the standings? Why are we keeping certain guns out of CO when DA/SA guns are already allowed? If someone wants to shoot any SA gun in CO it should be allowed. Not just 2011s. The only people that are showing up with 2011s typically are those with Staccatos. 2011s are typically something people choose to grow into if they stay in the sport for any amount of time. What percentage of the membership do you think that truly is? If SA triggers were somehow this huge competitive advantage why is that CZs and Tanfo are not all that people choose to shoot CO? Yes, I understand that DA will affect a couple of trigger pulls a match, but if the SA of the DA/SA trigger is such a competitive advantage it would truly make a difference in the rest of the trigger pulls over the course of a stage right? This has gotten off topic and frankly I am done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 11 minutes ago, MHicks said: after the initial DA first shot is not the same as the trigger on a SAO gun. Its pretty damn close. I own a Shadow 2 and a 2011 and the groups are exactly the same. At speed and bullseye shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I've certainly never talked to anyone who was afraid of the DA first shot on a DA/SA gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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