Let's talk Sao carry ops

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I know I said this before and everybody situation is different but the way the primer  situation is and it’s not looking like there going to ever let it go back to normal. 
a SAO gun can light off any primer and still have a 1.12oz trigger. 
It might be a minor thing to some but it would make me think about a SAO gun. 

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

I know I said this before and everybody situation is different but the way the primer  situation is and it’s not looking like there going to ever let it go back to normal. 
a SAO gun can light off any primer and still have a 1.12oz trigger. 
It might be a minor thing to some but it would make me think about a SAO gun. 

 

It's certainly something, I've got a good 10k primers that even a 15 lbs hammer spring in a CZ wont light 100%. A 2011 with a better trigger will though. 

 

Not sure that's a reason for a new division, but it's a thing. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Agreed. 
it’s just one of those things that sounds like it doesn’t matter but in reality it could. 
a new CO division would not be a good thing. 
That’s my opinion. 
 

[SufferInSilence]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Glad to hear this, even if it is third  hand info  

 

I watched a podcast and the prez vaguely hinted at something like this so a little more confirmation is great. Hopefully they will release provisional rules early 2023

Yeah that why I asked.  There’s a lot of 3rd hand “info” floating around.  I know what I was told, and I doubt a small business owner would start $10k+ worth of production on guns  “just in case” based off 3rd hand info.  
So, it seems legit.  
 

I’d shoot it simply because ammo availability is evolving the 9mm to be the primary round for just about everything, just as dots are evolving over iron sights.  
I have tricked out guns for every division but if I could dump them, load one type of ammo, and run the most efficient gear on the market in one gun then focus my time and money on training rather than a gear race, why not..?
 

Don’t like it? Then shoot whatever division you want.  Don’t worry about how others spend their money. Remember: it’s a game! 

I didn’t particularly like dudes being able to show up with 16” rifles to a handgun match, and storm trooping over everyone else but here we are.  I do me and have fun anyway. 

IMO, adding PCC killed what was left to the spirit of the game anyway.  
Whats a red dot on a 2011 going to do to top that? 
 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by SufferInSilence

[Boomstick303]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I am curious about how these two comments seem to contradict.

 

2 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

Don’t like it? Then shoot whatever division you want.  Don’t worry about how others spend their money. Remember: it’s a game! 

 

and

 

2 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

I didn’t particularly like dudes being able to show up with 16” rifles to a handgun match, and storm trooping over everyone else but here we are.  I do me and have fun anyway.

 

Why does this bother you when your hand gun does not compete against "Rifles"?

 

Otherwise, what you are telling me is to start selling all of my spare CO, PCC guns to fund a new SA 2011. 
 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, SufferInSilence said:

I have tricked out guns for every division but if I could dump them, load one type of ammo, and run the most efficient gear on the market in one gun then focus my time and money on training rather than a gear race, why not..?
 

Don’t like it? Then shoot whatever division you want.  Don’t worry about how others spend their money. Remember: it’s a game! 
 

 

Couldn't you pick a division now, dump all your tricked out guns and buy the most efficient gear for one division and just train? This seems like a excuse to not train. We don't need a new division for someone to focus on one set of gear.

 

That said, I wouldn't do that now. It'd be silly to pick a division knowing a new division is likely coming in some form. I'm going to call my AD later and see what I can get out of him. 

[SufferInSilence]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I am curious about how these two comments seem to contradict.

 

 

and

 

 

Why does this bother you when your hand gun does not compete against "Rifles"?

 

Otherwise, what you are telling me is to start selling all of my spare CO, PCCs guns to fund a new SA 2011. 
 

 

Look dude, no one is telling you to do anything.  
Don’t sell off all your guns because you thought a stranger on an Enos forum told you to, be your own man.  
 

What I’m saying is: 

-Do I like PCC in same venue as a handgun match, not really.  Can I change it, no.  Is it my business what a man chooses to shoot, nope.  
 

- It’s a game… a hobby… chill. Unless you are one of the few that’s found a way to feed your family on it.  

- USPSA has historically allowed new technology to enter the game and change its course of evolution.  From allowing hi cap Glocks to enter the game when most everyone shot 1911s and revolvers back in the 80s, to when dudes started throwing Aimpoint tubes and wooden mag wells on single stacks for Open, or allowing a wildcat round like 9Maj to have a venue and now PCC, CO etc.  There will always be changes, some will like them, others will not.  I say let it all rip and let participation thin out the herd.

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

Look dude, no one is telling you to do anything.  
Don’t sell off all your guns because you thought a stranger on an Enos forum told you to, be your own man.  
 

What I’m saying is: 

-Do I like PCC in same venue as a handgun match, not really.  Can I change it, no.  Is it my business what a man chooses to shoot, nope.  
 

- It’s a game… a hobby… chill. Unless you are one of the few that’s found a way to feed your family on it.  

- USPSA has historically allowed new technology to enter the game and change its course of evolution.  From allowing hi cap Glocks to enter the game when most everyone shot 1911s and revolvers back in the 80s, to when dudes started throwing Aimpoint tubes and wooden mag wells on single stacks for Open, or allowing a wildcat round like 9Maj to have a venue and now PCC, CO etc.  There will always be changes, some will like them, others will not.  I say let it all rip and let participation thin out the herd.

 

It is a funny stance to say don't worry about what others shoot even though you worry about what others shoot if they shoot a division you don't like. 

[SufferInSilence]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It is a funny stance to say don't worry about what others shoot even though you worry about what others shoot if they shoot a division you don't like. 

Ok, I’m done. Have a great day. I’m not going to get sucked into a smart ass passive aggressive troll cycle with you guys.  

My question has been answered.  None of you know if this will eventually be a division.  Check!  On to the the next thing.  

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

Ok, I’m done. Have a great day. I’m not going to get sucked into a smart ass passive aggressive troll cycle with you guys.  

My question has been answered.  None of you know if this will eventually be a division.  Check!  On to the the next thing.  

 

 

Chill man, it's just a game after all.

 

No one really knows until the the BOD minutes are released. It does seem vary likely.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Not in shooting but in other sports some sanctioning bodies will spread the rumor themselves to see how the competitors react.  
I kind of get the impression that a lot is discussed outside the official minutes. 

[BritinUSA]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

First don't they do 15 in the gun not 10 like our production? So they started out with better mag capacity. 2nd, you'll never shoot a 10 stage IPSC match with all 32 round stages. All their short courses and medium courses are going to make 15 rounds less of an issue.

When Production was introduced there were two votes, one to implement the division and the second to set the capacity at 10 rounds. The second vote failed. There was no magazine limit during the first few years. This started an equipment war as manufacturers tried to extend the grips/magazine of their guns to increase capacity.

 

IPSC later amended the rule-set to impose a 15 round limit which leveled the playing field for every Production gun that was on the approved list.

 

As to your point about stage design; IPSC's requirements for stage breakdown only apply at sanctioned matches, not local club matches where the vast majority of competitors shoot.

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, BritinUSA said:

 

As to your point about stage design; IPSC's requirements for stage breakdown only apply at sanctioned matches, not local club matches where the vast majority of competitors shoot.

 

So you're saying that ipsc club matches overseas today look a lot like our club matches? That's the first I've heard that claim. 

[Racinready300ex]

44 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Not in shooting but in other sports some sanctioning bodies will spread the rumor themselves to see how the competitors react.  
I kind of get the impression that a lot is discussed outside the official minutes. 

 

I think you're likely right. I messaged my AD he told me to call him when I get a chance. Made me think he doesn't want to put anything in writing because it'll seem official. I could be wrong, but the way thing are right now with everything a director says getting posted all over IG I can't blame them.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, SufferInSilence said:

Look dude, no one is telling you to do anything.  

 

Wow.  I was not even coming at you like that.  Sorry you took it that way.  

 

I agreed with almost everything you had to say except you seem to contradict yourself.  Just pointing that out as it was confusing to me. 

 

My comment about selling all of my CO guns was a serious one.  If LO is a thing I intend to shoot that and not so much CO anymore as I enjoy shooting 2011s way more.  If LO does become a thing I think I would wait to see what it looks like before ordering any gun, to make sure whatever gun I did buy could play in LO.  

 

My comments were not intended to be troll like but I cant tell you how to take stuff.

[BritinUSA]

56 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

So you're saying that ipsc club matches overseas today look a lot like our club matches? That's the first I've heard that claim. 

Stages at USPSA club matches vary from location to location, the same is true of IPSC. The 3-2-1 ratio is only mandated for sanctioned matches, its in the IPSC rule-book.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

 USPSA has historically allowed new technology

 

2011s aren't new technology.  Nothing you're wanting to screw CO with is new.

 

It just so happens it's your favorite pet gun.

 

But we're the trolls.

 

LOL

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

2011s aren't new technology.  Nothing you're wanting to screw CO with is new.

 

Slide ride optics on 2011s is relatively new, no?

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Stages at USPSA club matches vary from location to location, the same is true of IPSC. The 3-2-1 ratio is only mandated for sanctioned matches, its in the IPSC rule-book.

 

Obviously I'm speaking broadly here. Everyone knows this are different from place to place. But many matches here in the US have much higher HF's than what seems to be common in ipsc. This means the style of shooting is different and likely plays into the popularity of hi-capacity mags. And their 15 is still a lot better than 10. 

 

Production would likely be more popular here with higher capacity mags. I've shot a lot of stages that would just be annoying to shoot with a low cap gun. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Slide ride optics on 2011s is relatively new, no?

 

I can remember seeing open guns with slide mounted optics pre CO becoming a division. Not common though. 

 

Back in the 90's I think all the optics where to big to mount on the slide. Anyone know when the first slide ride optic showed up in uspsa? That'd be interesting history. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Slide ride optics on 2011s is relatively new, no?

 

Not any newer than slide ride optics on any other pistol.  If we want to argue what's newer, DA/SA pistols showed up in the market decades after SAO did.

 

This is still all about a few wanting their pet pistols in CO instead of using something that's already allowed.

 

The argument that 2011s are suddenly new or the new hotness is instagram fantasy.  They ain't new (remember Para Ordnance) and they're the hotness only in social media.

 

No matter how much a few vocal ones want to deny it, human nature is not rational.  Whether or not heavy SAO high cap pistols are an advantage is irrelevant because they are already perceived to be one and will become the default, if ever allowed in CO.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Slide ride optics on 2011s is relatively new, no?

 

I found threads here going back to 2010 talking about slide mounting dots on open 2011's.  There may be older stuff but I think some of it's likely gone now. 

 

It's also worth noting old threads had a lot of talk about dots being a fad and now look at us. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So you're saying that ipsc club matches overseas today look a lot like our club matches? That's the first I've heard that claim. 

I watch a fair bit of ipsc matches from norway and spain on youtube. Other than range facilities not as nice as ours, many of the stages would feel super familiar to you in round count, target presentation and general stage lay our. Though, to be fair very very very very few of them are 4 positions with 8 rounds in each.

[SufferInSilence]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Wow.  I was not even coming at you like that.  Sorry you took it that way.  

 

I agreed with almost everything you had to say except you seem to contradict yourself.  Just pointing that out as it was confusing to me. 

 

My comment about selling all of my CO guns was a serious one.  If LO is a thing I intend to shoot that and not so much CO anymore as I enjoy shooting 2011s way more.  If LO does become a thing I think I would wait to see what it looks like before ordering any gun, to make sure whatever gun I did buy could play in LO.  

 

My comments were not intended to be troll like but I cant tell you how to take stuff.

All good dude.  Have fun.  Shoot whatever pew pew you want.  Only god and the chrono can judge us.    

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I watch a fair bit of ipsc matches from norway and spain on youtube. Other than range facilities not as nice as ours, many of the stages would feel super familiar to you in round count, target presentation and general stage lay our. Though, to be fair very very very very few of them are 4 positions with 8 rounds in each.

 

In my area I feel like stages got worse, and are now getting better again. They are vary much gun up, on the trigger most of the time with pretty high HF's. Not really much running because you're probably shooting on the move or not moving more than a few steps before seeing the next target. 

 

10 round mags on some of the stages I've shot this year would of just been annoying TBH. Hell I shot a sectional in PCC and was still annoyed by 2-3 position 32 round stages where you just hammered the trigger constantly. I think stages like that are murdering low cap divisions.