DQ or Not? Pushing window open with gun.

[bjcollado]

So CoF has a window that activates a swinger. Shooter proceeds to open the window by pushing it with the muzzle of his gun. RO stops shooter and calls DQ shooter appeals and is granted a reshoot because it was not specified in the briefing that window should be opened by hands only. Appeal was granted before the RO was able to mention what rule was breached. Is there such a rule?

[Nghthwk1911]

That RO needs to be re-trained.  No such rule exists.

[bjcollado]

10 minutes ago, Nghthwk1911 said:

That RO needs to be re-trained.  No such rule exists.

I thought so too!

[MikeRussell]

If the shooter didn't sweep themselves, didn't break the 180, and it wasn't listed as a forbidden action... then what's the problem? I would've reversed the call and given a reshoot as well. 

[basman]

1 hour ago, Nghthwk1911 said:

That RO needs to be re-trained.  No such rule exists.

This^

[GigG]

Bad call.  Call the RM.  

 

In fact, I've seen several shooters get DQ'd on activaters like that by NOT using the gun to push the window/door open.  They swept their hand/arm doing it.  

[Schutzenmeister]

If the gun were to go bang through the prop I would likely support a DQ for an AD ... Otherwise, I'd have troubles justifying the call.

[Joe4d]

Only rule that comes close would be 10.5..  The "But not Limited to" part.
ALthough I know even though it is in over size bold letters, it is routinely ignored. IMO a major issue with USPSA safety rules.  That line is there, but if the offense isnt specifically spelled out as an example then some how it isnt a DQ. 

IAW the rules if the RO thought it was unsafe gun handling the DQ was justified... AND if the RM didnt think it was unsafe  then the appeal was justified. 
Seems the rules were followed and evidently worked as designed.  
I wasnt there so cant comment on whether or not the situation would be unsafe in my opinion. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I just passed the ro class not to long ago. 
and I’ve come to realize that it’s not a job to be thinking. 
because if you have to think about if that’s a violation then … that means you don’t know !
I would never DQ someone and then go check to make sure the rules support my assumption.  
read the rules ,know the rules and if it’s not in there it’s good to go. 

know the rules and think less

Edited November 7, 2022 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter

[Kwontanamo]

It wasn’t an ND either so it shouldn’t have been an issue. 
 

I’ve run into people who think they know the rules and make things up all the time, falling steel for example. You reshoot it where it was shot, not anywhere in the shooting area. 

[waktasz]

6 hours ago, bjcollado said:

So CoF has a window that activates a swinger. Shooter proceeds to open the window by pushing it with the muzzle of his gun. RO stops shooter and calls DQ shooter appeals and is granted a reshoot because it was not specified in the briefing that window should be opened by hands only. Appeal was granted before the RO was able to mention what rule was breached. Is there such a rule?

 

Even if it was noted in the brief the window had to be opened with your hands, there would be penalties assessed for doing it "wrong", not a DQ

[broadside72]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Only rule that comes close would be 10.5..  The "But not Limited to" part.
ALthough I know even though it is in over size bold letters, it is routinely ignored. IMO a major issue with USPSA safety rules.  That line is there, but if the offense isnt specifically spelled out as an example then some how it isnt a DQ. 

IAW the rules if the RO thought it was unsafe gun handling the DQ was justified... AND if the RM didnt think it was unsafe  then the appeal was justified. 
Seems the rules were followed and evidently worked as designed.  
I wasnt there so cant comment on whether or not the situation would be unsafe in my opinion. 

 

I've been shot down by RM/RMI's in the field and on this site by trying to use that part of the rules. It should be removed or allowed to be enforced. Keeping it there as-is is essentially making the rulebook meaningless if you can't use the words as they are printed. 

[motosapiens]

can someone give me some examples of something so dangerous it should be a dq, but that isn't covered by the current rules on sweeping, AD, dropped guns, etc...?

 

for sure, pushing open a window with your gun doesn't qualify, but something must....

[caspian guy]

9 hours ago, bjcollado said:

So CoF has a window that activates a swinger. Shooter proceeds to open the window by pushing it with the muzzle of his gun. RO stops shooter and calls DQ shooter appeals and is granted a reshoot because it was not specified in the briefing that window should be opened by hands only. Appeal was granted before the RO was able to mention what rule was breached. Is there such a rule?

I've done this at the nationals before.. No rule say you can't muzzle down a window/activator.  But the note below about an discharge while doing it should be though about (were that to happen.)

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Why ?

you can swing it all over the place while running. 
as long As you don’t break the rules. 
really what’s any different then coming around a corner in a tight high ready and presenting early and jamming the muzzle into a wall. 
No harm 

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

George told us in the class 

if you call a DQ it’s because you know he did it !

which means you show them the rule that applies. 
It’s not a tie goes to the runner…. It’s more of a RO better know the rules. 
Especially  if your gonna call a DQ. 
 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

1 hour ago, caspian guy said:

I've done this at the nationals before.. No rule say you can't muzzle down a window/activator.  But the note below about an discharge while doing it should be though about (were that to happen.)

But at that point your DQ’d because of a AD ! 
not because you pushed a window open with your muzzle. that’s inconsequential.

 
 
 

[caspian guy]

18 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

But at that point your DQ’d because of a AD ! 
not because you pushed a window open with your muzzle. that’s inconsequential.

 
 
 

You are right and that's why I made a point of saying no rule says you can't muzzle down  a window. 

 

The point I was making with the second half of that comment  (probably I didn't make it that well) is that if you chose to muzzle down a window be careful. For a lot of folks they are manipulating the gun in a way they may not be used to (striking or pushing something with the gun) and over the years I have seen more than one AD caused by people doing exactly that. The other thing I've seen is people push the gun slightly out of battery (maybe more of an issue with open guns with light recoil springs and cause a malfunction.

 

[2MoreChains]

12 minutes ago, caspian guy said:

The other thing I've seen is people push the gun slightly out of battery (maybe more of an issue with open guns with light recoil springs and cause a malfunction.

 

 

And the Timmies are saying “THAT is why you mount a light with a bezel that extends a little past the muzzle!”  

[Bakerjd]

Lols. If they don't want you to open the window like that using a forbidden action is not the way to do it. There are ways to do it like at A5 in KY in 2020 or 2021. They had a window you had to open to shoot a target aray. To open it you had to pull a rope and hold the rope to keep it open. 

[Joe4d]

18 hours ago, 2MoreChains said:

 

And the Timmies are saying “THAT is why you mount a light with a bezel that extends a little past the muzzle!”  

nah you need one of those mini Glock rail mount bayonets...
Zombies.... 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 11/7/2022 at 9:00 PM, Bakerjd said:

Lols. If they don't want you to open the window like that using a forbidden action is not the way to do it. There are ways to do it like at A5 in KY in 2020 or 2021. They had a window you had to open to shoot a target aray. To open it you had to pull a rope and hold the rope to keep it open. 

 

Or the window can be hinged to open towards you.  Hitting it with the gun (or anything else) won't work.

[waktasz]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:10 PM, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

But at that point your DQ’d because of a AD ! 
not because you pushed a window open with your muzzle. that’s inconsequential.

 
 
 

 

If you aren't moving, reloading, clearing a malf or shoot over the berm, an AD isn't necessarily a DQ. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

If you aren't moving, reloading, clearing a malf or shoot over the berm, an AD isn't necessarily a DQ. 

 

I wonder how many commenting on this thread are actually ROs?

[Nolan]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I wonder how many commenting on this thread are actually ROs?

 

Why?  Are you implying only an RO has read the rule book, or only an RO can understand the rule book or has the experience to understand the rule book?

 

Nolan