manaul vs auto reloading

[boatdoc173]

Todays automatic loading systems seem like a dream to own and use. HOWEVER>>

 

I have enough issues with a Dillon 550 just trying to manually load.(9mm and  45 acp only so far)

 

 so far 200/hour is my best as something ALWAYS  happens( primer system issues usually- including deprime pins getting stuck in firing holes)..most issues are with the 9mm which I load a lot of

 

so my ?  to those that know-- how do you autoload so  many rounds without issues?  if something is wrong,does the system shut down automatically?  are the sensors supplied reliable.

 

when I reload.  I am concerned  with using  the  right brands of mixe d  range brass ,  correct primer insertion, powder  drops... So I am a slower loader( average  10-12  seconds/ round). BUT I Know  my rounds  are safe.  I  would LOVE to make  even 500-800 rounds/hour on an auto system IF I could  be  assured of few problems and no safety   issues

 

JUst wondering how you auto loaders know your  rounds are properly made?  do you have duds?  othe r  issues?

 

The time savings and ability to load in the thousands/hours  is interesting and tempting. Of course I would have to spend quite a bit of time  sorting brass  by headstamps so they would be ready for auto loader use ( vs one at a time when I load now). how abou t primers? how do you bulk load  them into a auto machine  like the dillon 1100 or the mark  7 machines?   do  they feed smothly ,proper sid e up?  

 

any other considerations for  going auto?

 

thanks for your time and effort   to help

Edited October 21, 2022 by boatdoc173

[Racinready300ex]

Part of the reason you don't see much automation on lower end presses is problems like you mentioned. The better presses run more reliably and can handle much higher volumes of loading. That's why most people don't automate the 650 for example.

 

 

I'm not automated, but I guess I am at least more so than you are. I'm running a basic 650 with a bullet feeder and a case feeder. I also use the DAA primer pro thing to fill primer tubes. The biggest issues I have are either crimped primers not coming out, or upside down primers. I get maybe 1 upside down primer every 200 rounds right now. That's acceptable for the time saved. Any bad primers are caught during case gauging. Never had a dud, or a squib while loading on this press. If I case gauge I never really have any ammo related issues. 

 

A buddy of mine is automated, he can fill primer tubes by hand, load and case gauge on the slowest setting at about double the speed I can just load on my 650. I'd love to automate, less time at the press means more time doing anything else. 

 

 

 

[Rnlinebacker]

22 minutes ago, boatdoc173 said:

Todays automatic loading systems seem like a dream to own and use. HOWEVER>>

 

I have enough issues with a Dillon 550 just trying to manually load.(9mm and  45 acp only so far)

 

 so far 200/hour is my best as something ALWAYS  happens( primer system issues usually- including deprime pins getting stuck in firing holes)..most issues are with the 9mm which I load a lot of

 

so my ?  to those that know-- how do you autoload so  many rounds without issues?  if something is wrong,does the system shut down automatically?  are the sensors supplied reliable.

 

when I reload.  I am concerned  with using  the  right brands of mixe d  range brass ,  correct primer insertion, powder  drops... So I am a slower loader( average  10-12  seconds/ round). BUT I Know  my rounds  are safe.  I  would LOVE to make  even 500-800 rounds/hour on an auto system IF I could  be  assured of few problems and no safety   issues

 

JUst wondering how you auto loaders know your  rounds are properly made?  do you have duds?  othe r  issues?

Hornady case lube us a tremendous headache saver. Spray both sides of a Ziploc bag with a decent coating, throw your brass on and shake around all the brass.

[CC3D]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I get maybe 1 upside down primer every 200 rounds right now. That's acceptable for the time saved.

I'm sorry this is not really relevant to the thread- but man 1 upside down primer every 200 rounds seems like way too often. I'm loading on a 750 so it has a different system, but in many thousands of rounds I have not gotten 1 upside down primer. Might want to take a look at that. 

 

But to answer OP, the real reasoning I believe is that those automated presses are designed WITH automation in mind. They have redundancies, fail safes, and design aspects that make them optimal for automated loading. 

[boatdoc173]

@Rnlinebacker -case lube is a must > I use Hornady one shot and the method you use.

 

I fully understand and appreciate the bullet feeds and case feeder.  I edited my thread to include my case issue( sorting by acceptable head stamp during loading  vs doing it in bulk to prep for loading with an auto feeder).

 

when I  produce 200 rounds/ hours  an d our members  produce  1500 or mor e  per hour  automated.. makes ya think about  time spent.  I like reloading. It takes the  winter pass easier.  BUT making 1000  rounds+/ week in one  session   sounds better than what  I am doing now( 5-7 hours or more a week- timing depends on stoppages)

[boatdoc173]

@CC3D-thanks for the reassuring reply.   o my next  ?  would  be-- for someone who is not a natural mechanic, how hard is a dillon 1100, 1050 or mark 7 system to set up   and get working  right?.  I only need 4 stations as I do now.

 

setting up the dillon 550c was easy  . tweaking it took time.  trial and error for a newer  reloader was expected. some  of the issues I encountered  sure stretched my ability to be patient and work things  through

[cvincent]

The biggest thing is to get the press, and feeders running 100% before adding autodrive.  Otherwise it will make the issues worse it seems.  Then you may have to tweak it once automated. Keeping everything clean and lubed helps a lot. I’m on a mark7/650.  Works amazingly. The machines integrated clutch sensors stop it, when there’s an issue. Just have to keep it as low as possible. Bullet senser stops from having a bin full of empty cases and powder everywhere.  I made a primer wheel not rotating “sensor”.  If I have a stoppage from the primer wheel from advancing, don’t have primerless ammo.  Never any squibs or double charges.  Pretty unlikely on a functioning 650 without user error.  It’ll run .40 on 1200 rounds per hour forever.  9mm takes more effort to resize, so if I get a case with not enough lube it may stop the machine due to excessive force required to size it.  Also have it setup to process .223 and 300blk. Brass. Convert 223 to 300blk brass. And load both of those. 
tweaking required for sure, especially when setting up new calibers.  But when it’s set, it’s pretty much good to go.  It does seem to wear out parts quicker.  Springs mostly. 

[Racinready300ex]

43 minutes ago, CC3D said:

I'm sorry this is not really relevant to the thread- but man 1 upside down primer every 200 rounds seems like way too often. I'm loading on a 750 so it has a different system, but in many thousands of rounds I have not gotten 1 upside down primer. Might want to take a look at that. 

 

But to answer OP, the real reasoning I believe is that those automated presses are designed WITH automation in mind. They have redundancies, fail safes, and design aspects that make them optimal for automated loading. 

 

It's the primer filler not the press. It loads a primer tube before I'm done loading so I never stop loading. I'd prefer not to waste a primer, but I prefer not filling tubes by hand more. 

 

It also depends on the primers. CCI run amazingly through that thing. Right now I'm loading Federal and they kind of suck. I had to adjust it a lot, now it's running but getting the upside down primers here and there. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, cvincent said:

The biggest thing is to get the press, and feeders running 100% before adding autodrive.  Otherwise it will make the issues worse it seems.  Then you may have to tweak it once automated. Keeping everything clean and lubed helps a lot. I’m on a mark7/650.  Works amazingly. The machines integrated clutch sensors stop it, when there’s an issue. Just have to keep it as low as possible. Bullet senser stops from having a bin full of empty cases and powder everywhere.  I made a primer wheel not rotating “sensor”.  If I have a stoppage from the primer wheel from advancing, don’t have primerless ammo.  Never any squibs or double charges.  Pretty unlikely on a functioning 650 without user error.  It’ll run .40 on 1200 rounds per hour forever.  9mm takes more effort to resize, so if I get a case with not enough lube it may stop the machine due to excessive force required to size it.  Also have it setup to process .223 and 300blk. Brass. Convert 223 to 300blk brass. And load both of those. 
tweaking required for sure, especially when setting up new calibers.  But when it’s set, it’s pretty much good to go.  It does seem to wear out parts quicker.  Springs mostly. 

 

People I've talked to brake that index ring from time to time. Any trouble with that? How many rounds have you loaded. 

[CC3D]

13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's the primer filler not the press. It loads a primer tube before I'm done loading so I never stop loading. I'd prefer not to waste a primer, but I prefer not filling tubes by hand more. 

 

It also depends on the primers. CCI run amazingly through that thing. Right now I'm loading Federal and they kind of suck. I had to adjust it a lot, now it's running but getting the upside down primers here and there. 

Ah I see. Regardless for the cost of that DAA pro thing I'd be expecting it to run better than that. I see the appeal of using an auto filler though- definitely messes with my flow. 

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, CC3D said:

Ah I see. Regardless for the cost of that DAA pro thing I'd be expecting it to run better than that. I see the appeal of using an auto filler though- definitely messes with my flow. 

 

Yeah, I'd prefer it just work but that hasn't been the case for me so far. And these aren't days to be picky about the type of primer you use. I'll have to play with it a little more and see if I can get it any better. 

[cvincent]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

People I've talked to brake that index ring from time to time. Any trouble with that? How many rounds have you loaded. 

I broke one when I first got it, while using the Swage-it.  Never again since. 4 or 5 years ago maybe. But don’t use that swager anymore either. I Have replaced springs, the black case inserter thing, the case drop lever thing, primer wheel arm. Small stuff.   Some of its processing brass. But close to 100,000 cycles on it for sure. 

[Racinready300ex]

That's not bad. I've considered one several times but I always talk myself out of it. 

[Rustygun]

4 hours ago, CC3D said:

I'm sorry this is not really relevant to the thread- but man 1 upside down primer every 200 rounds seems like way too often. I'm loading on a 750 so it has a different system, but in many thousands of rounds I have not gotten 1 upside down primer. Might want to take a look at that. 

 

But to answer OP, the real reasoning I believe is that those automated presses are designed WITH automation in mind. They have redundancies, fail safes, and design aspects that make them optimal for automated loading. 
 

I agree with you I run a old 650 that I found in pieces in he back of a guys shop.  Rebuilt it myself. And I had an upside down primer back about in 2017.  I am reasonably sure I loaded the primer in the pickup tube upside down.  Not the presses fault.  I also have a 550 and load multiple calibers on it.  Had a squib on a 38 spl in 2006 (wrote it down and posted on the reloading bench) no damage to me or the gun but I learned from it. If you setup the press right and “tune” each stage these presses run without issues.  Each stage is a mechanical function and once adjusted and locked in place they run smooth.  Your vehicle is a good example of mechanical pieces all working together like they are supposed to.  
 

edit… I do not sort brass, I tumble with dry media, I do squirt some “one shot” in a plastic bag and shake the brass around before it goes in the case feeder, I have loaded at least 10K rounds of 9mm on the 650 and lost count of other calibers on the old 550.  
 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rustygun
Adding more info.

[boatdoc173]

@cvincent,I admire  your skill and tenacity.  your post  confirmed the need for tweaks and know how in setting up the loader before automating  and then more  when automating.  sure gives me a lot to think about

 

thanks  for the honest post and insight

Edited October 22, 2022 by boatdoc173

[Boomstick303]

@cvincentis 100% correct.  Run your press for awhile without automation.  I did and I am glad i did.  It allowed me what causes stoppages.  It taught me how and when to break down the press and perform maintenance.  It allows you to create processes for loading various ammo.  Running it for some time manually, also allows you to tweak the machine, your tool heads to get them just right, so when you do automate its seamless.  I would manually load any ammo you intend to load until you are comfortable loading all of them.  Then automate.  

 

I would also recommend also using only processed brass when loading automated.  I did not for 9mm when loading manually, but now that I am automated, I will load all of my ammo in 2 passes.  First pass will process the brass, the load once all of my brass is processed.  

 

I purchased a Mark 7 for my Super 1050 used to automate the system, and so far its been amazing.  I have a few bugs to work out, but when it is running its a dream.  I think where it will be really appreciated is when I start processing 223, 9mm and 40 brass while automated.  

[ddc]

I have a manual 650 and an Ammobot driven 1100.

I wouldn't dream of automating a 650.

I know people do it. My hat is off to them.

 

As far as the 1050/1100 is concerned it is quite viable.

As has been mentioned do not turn on your automation until you have the press running like a sewing machine.

 

Is it worth it? 

In the end... yes, I'm glad I bought it.

 

But there is a definite learning curve to get your press up and running reliably enough to justify automation.

Until you get there it will be quite frustrating. You will likely question your decision more than once.

 

Keep it clean, keep it lubed.

 

Do not be surprised to find that it needs a minor adjustment now and again. But that is true for manual presses too.

 

One thing that many automated users end up doing is a two pass strategy.

pass 1: size, decap

pass 2: everything else

 

There are variations on that theme. Some size, decap and prime on the first pass.

 

The reason for doing this is the majority of hang ups and other issues seem to revolve around unsuccessful decapping.

[boatdoc173]

@Boomstick303 and @ddc  . I appreciate your points of  view and advice. I fully understand why you would  work manually at first.

 

I am still working out the issues that present  on my RL 550C.  most are fixed and I am now enjoying my sessions more.  Just thinking that the better        r eloaders offer a faster way to make the ammo. I need to research what it is  that makes the RL 750, 1050,1100 better than my 550c. why would they make more ammo--manually.?

 

I KNOW  that a case feeder and a bullet feeder  could speed up my loading #s( and that I  would would been an auto indexing loader to take advantage of those improvements.

 

Initially ,I would have to invest a HUGE amount of time to clean and  sort by headstamp the 9mm brass( some brands of brass cause issues for sure. I want to get them out of the mix). I am concerned  about the lack of a lifetime warranty on the 1050,100 series.  The  lifetime warranty is a huge draw when buying dillon reloaders. It is appreciated beyond explanation

 

I have a lot of thinking and reading to do

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by boatdoc173

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, boatdoc173 said:

I need to research what it is  that makes the RL 750, 1050,1100 better than my 550c.

 

I think this has to do with how much ammo you truly are going to reload.  That would also come into play with automation as well.  One big reason for a 1050 or an 1100 versus the 750 is the swaging that the 750 does not have.  If you intend to reload 223 swaging is important in my eyes.  There is a way to do it on a 750, but it is not as streamline as the 1050 or 1100 which include swaging as part of the natural indexing.  If you intend to load lots of rifle ammo I would lean towards the 1050 and 1100.  I would also add the swaging function has already prevented many stoppages loading 9mm for me as well, but if you are diligent in sorting out military crimp 9mm it may not be an issue if you go the 750 route.  

 

I would not be too concerned on the warranty.  I have heard the reason the 1050 and 1100 to not have the lifetime warranty is due to mass ammo producers using them make mass amounts of ammo for sale, versus the normal reloader. The 750 lifetime warranty is amazing. I have had buddies buy used machines have Dillon quote them a price to refer, has Dillon refurb the unit, and then didn't charge him anything.  Will that always be the case, probably not, but amazing none the less.  

 

If you do intend to automate, and go with the 750 I have heard and read the Mark 7 does not play as nice with the 750 as the Mark 7 for the 1050 and 1100 does.  Something probably to consider.  Why and how I do not know, that is just what I have heard.  Maybe someone one this board that has automated the 750 can speak to this better than I can.  

 

If you have any questions about the Super 1050 I will be happy to help you with them.  I do not know that much about the 1100 and the 750 but they are great machines as well. 

 

Good luck in your search.  

[boatdoc173]

thanks again @boomstick303.

 

info provided an d offer are appreciated.

even if I pas son full automation, it is starting to look  like a step up is in order.  more time needed to think this trough.. this thread and the info in it make the decision a stronger one.

 

I am a loyal dillon customer. I would  not buy the other machines  due to the way dillon has treated me. They  stand behind their equipment--period. choosing the next  tep will take time  for sure( 750  1050  1100)

 

the  new machine will be for 9mm only. I can load  other calibers with my 550c machines. small batches are not an issue.

[HOGRIDER]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It's the primer filler not the press. It loads a primer tube before I'm done loading so I never stop loading. I'd prefer not to waste a primer, but I prefer not filling tubes by hand more. 

 

It also depends on the primers. CCI run amazingly through that thing. Right now I'm loading Federal and they kind of suck. I had to adjust it a lot, now it's running but getting the upside down primers here and there. 

@Racinready300ex  Been loading with nothing but Federal Match SP primes for MANY years, and in my experience, they are without fault in the RL1100 or previous XL650s.  I usually load in passes of 500-1K; and just load up however many I need using Dillon PPU tubes with my PAL Filler.  If my machines priming system is clean, I have "0" upside down primers............

 

[HOGRIDER]

3 hours ago, boatdoc173 said:

@Boomstick303 and @ddc  . I appreciate your points of  view and advice. I fully understand why you would  work manually at first.

 

I am still working out the issues that present  on my RL 550C.  most are fixed and I am now enjoying my sessions more.  Just thinking that the better        r eloaders offer a faster way to make the ammo. I need to research what it is  that makes the RL 750, 1050,1100 better than my 550c. why would they make more ammo--manually.?

 

I KNOW  that a case feeder and a bullet feeder  could speed up my loading #s( and that I  would would been an auto indexing loader to take advantage of those improvements.

 

Initially ,I would have to invest a HUGE amount of time to clean and  sort by headstamp the 9mm brass( some brands of brass cause issues for sure. I want to get them out of the mix). I am concerned  about the lack of a lifetime warranty on the 1050,100 series.  The  lifetime warranty is a huge draw when buying dillon reloaders. It is appreciated beyond explanation

 

I have a lot of thinking and reading to do

 

@boatdoc173Something you might want to consider............  you could send your mixed brass to a commercial sorter/seller, and for a reasonable fee, they would sell you back your own brass in about any configuration you may need.  All same headstamp and FULLY PROCESSED!

 

[shred]

Which autoloader you use matters too.  I've had 1050s with Mark 7, Forcht and Posness Warren autodrives (haven't tried the ammobot)

 

The P-W is a huge hassle to tune and long gone.

 

Forcht is the PW improved and done right.  It's old-school mechanical motor drive with a clutch.  Something jams and the clutch spins until you stop and fix it. 

If you just want to do one caliber and don't care about the odd case getting crushed, not a bad deal-- mine is processing brass these days.

 

The Mark 7 has a raft of sensors available for it and will stop if one triggers (I use the built-in torque sense, swage-sense and low primer sensors) and will stop and complain on the tablet when something goes sideways.  I load match ammo on it while watching and catching the rounds that come out straight into a hundo gauge.  Every now and then a bullet will topple or the primer feed won't (140K rounds on that 1050), but it can go thousands of hours without major trouble.  

 

When the trouble starts or the press gets wonky, it's hair-pulling time until you get it fixed.  Best plan I've found is just to suck it up and do a full tear down and clean as well as a retune of the bullet dropper mechanism.

 

[Part_time_redneck]

OP. 

     I joined the “somewhat “ civilized world a while back an d went to a MK7 drive still on a 650. I had one on order but a friend was upgrading to an apex and made me a deal. 

     I only shoot 12-15K rds a year so bulk output is not my primary concern. Consistently is. My machine will run at 1800 rds / hr. Wide open!! If u try loading open ammo on a 650 like this powder would fly like a yard sprinkler and more indexer ring plastic would fly out than loaded ammo. So I don’t do it. With top slowdown, top dwell and index dropped I run about 470 rds/ hr. Still with adding primers, brass, Bullets and powder 1K finished product is less than 3 hrs. Anything less than perfect adjustment wise on your press will be amplified when automated. 

     If u want raw high output, simple fact is you will get what u pay for. Also the larger machines are much more forgiving due to automation. As far as the MK 7 on a 650 the only problem is the 650. I love mine but it has its limitations. As long as u stay within these limits it’s fantastic. When you exceed them it will let you know. 

[boatdoc173]

@shred-thanks. your post  along with a few others have me leaning  toward a press upgrade. considering which one as I feel I should leave future automation for when I have more time to dedicate--like retirement.  in the meantime I could load and tweak a new press to get the most out of it

 

@Part_time_redneck--raw output is not my goal. just looking to do better than my 200/hour peak on a  550c.  The manually indexed  550c   allows me to assure that each round is loaded properly.  sure it is slow  but it is safe. increased rated of loading with better machines have a  learning  curve to assure that each station is working as  it should. seems like everyone is stating that .  If I am moving towards  bullet feeders and case feeders ( an d  possibly automation), I expect to spend  quite  a bitof time learning the new machine and what it takes to load rounds  safely  AND  faster.

 

I am still learning about the machines. seems like the consensus is to take the plunge with a RL1100 as it afford the most options now and in the future