USPSA Rule Change Announcement... When?

[konkapot]

My original post re: BHP was sarcastic.

 

I am now on board the "Major Alphas count for 6 points and minor Alphas count for 4" program. 

 

Limited mag length should be reduced to 138mm maximum. 

[deerslayer]

Talked to someone in the know recently (not going to name drop, but it's a name everyone here would recognize) and I asked about 2011s in CO.  He implied that he believes there will be a new limited optics division (instead of simply allowing single actions in the current CO division) and it will be major/minor, but it will be 2024 at the earliest, due to the new bylaws.  This may all be crap, but the major/minor scoring surprised me.  I hope it's true.  I don't think yet another division is necessarily needed, but it would just about be worth it to hear the howling from all the 9mm 2011 fans when they hear major/minor.  

 

Regarding the OP, I don't think there is a timeline for announcements, but I believe the new bylaws require new equipment proposals to be submitted to the BOD by September of each year and then a 90 day review/comment period for the membership.  The BOD then votes and the rules goes into effect (if approved) the following January, so we are past the September deadline for any 2023 equipment changes.  It would be interesting if we start hearing about lim optics major in the spring.  

Edited October 16, 2022 by deerslayer

[Nathanb]

I hope it is major minor. That way all these manufacturers who are pushing for it are still in the same boat 

[RJH]

39 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

I hope it is major minor. That way all these manufacturers who are pushing for it are still in the same boat 

 

That would successfully kill it before it started

[deerslayer]

12 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

That would successfully kill it before it started

 

How?  A .40 limited gun with a dot sounds intriguing. 

[Nathanb]

31 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

That would successfully kill it before it started

Hey everyone says 2011s with slide mounted dots.  That’s the ask right?  It’s not so those 9mm minor 2011s can be competitive. Just so they can be shot outside of open right?  

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Hey everyone says 2011s with slide mounted dots.  That’s the ask right?  It’s not so those 9mm minor 2011s can be competitive. Just so they can be shot outside of open right?  

 

I think it has to do with 9mm 2011 are some of the funnest guns to shoot, and that is really what it mostly boils down to. People that compare shooting 2011s versus anything, and if they're honest almost always pick a 2011 for enjoyment. People that actually shoot know that even though they're more enjoyable to shoot, there's not an actual competitive advantage to shooting a 2011.  However, in USPSA there is not a place for a 9mm minor 2011 to be competitive, because when allowed, major power factor is a competitive advantage. 

 

So I think most people that are looking for a place to shoot a slide Rider 2011, do want it to be minor only. Also assuming we keep major and minor in USPSA, I'm not sure there's a real future for any new major division. Because I think most people will end up just shooting carry-ops as it is now over anything that requires major

 

Hopefully all that makes sense LOL

[RJH]

42 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 

How?  A .40 limited gun with a dot sounds intriguing. 

Read my post Right above this one, I don't want to have to retype it LOL

[Nathanb]

37 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I think it has to do with 9mm 2011 are some of the funnest guns to shoot, and that is really what it mostly boils down to. People that compare shooting 2011s versus anything, and if they're honest almost always pick a 2011 for enjoyment. People that actually shoot know that even though they're more enjoyable to shoot, there's not an actual competitive advantage to shooting a 2011.  However, in USPSA there is not a place for a 9mm minor 2011 to be competitive, because when allowed, major power factor is a competitive advantage. 

 

So I think most people that are looking for a place to shoot a slide Rider 2011, do want it to be minor only. Also assuming we keep major and minor in USPSA, I'm not sure there's a real future for any new major division. Because I think most people will end up just shooting carry-ops as it is now over anything that requires major

 

Hopefully all that makes sense LOL

I totally get it. I was just being snarky. No matter how much someone says they just want to shoot it for fun there is always a competitive slant to it. It’s not about shooting it it’s about shooting it competitively. Most won’t say that though.  
 

in still waiting for a tactical Timmy division that allows drop legs and all that stuff 

[RJH]

Dang. Looks like Nils just won limited shooting a plastic minor $600 gun. Maybe everybody's fixing to switch to nine minor guns in limited and open and this is no longer an issue 

 

 

The not 2011 limited win doesn't surprise me. But the minor caliber win in limited does. And that's even considering Nils shot 99% last year shooting minor

[Sarge]

One things for sure. IF they make the CO change a bunch of guns will become old news overnight just like SS and REVO.

[konkapot]

If I'm reading the rumor report correctly, the implication is that there might be a new division, that it would be a 2011 with a slide mounted dot.........and there'd be major/minor options? This renews the "Why not just shoot open?" argument. 

[Nathanb]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Dang. Looks like Nils just won limited shooting a plastic minor $600 gun. Maybe everybody's fixing to switch to nine minor guns in limited and open and this is no longer an issue 

 

 

The not 2011 limited win doesn't surprise me. But the minor caliber win in limited does. And that's even considering Nils shot 99% last year shooting minor

This is the toughest part.  We’ve got guys like this who are just truly a talent above the GM scale. I’ve shot with some GMs that are unreal and then they go to nationals and get absolutely destroyed by the supers. It really makes you think either the gm bar needs raised or there needs to be a new class for the guys like sailer and nils etc 

[Sarge]

21 minutes ago, konkapot said:

If I'm reading the rumor report correctly, the implication is that there might be a new division, that it would be a 2011 with a slide mounted dot.........and there'd be major/minor options? This renews the "Why not just shoot open?" argument. 

Agreed. For custom 2011 money I’d stay in open

[konkapot]

Some of this just seems crazy.  As has been said a b/million times before this sport is chasing new shooters when many/most club matches fill up in seconds or minutes. 

 

I might be misusing the word here, but it seems like we are pandering to people who don't currently shoot our sport. 

 

If people want to try our sport.........they will come and try it with the gun they have. Whatever they have will fit somewhere. They'll shoot, get their pride pounded into the ground, and then either 

 

a. Never come back

b. Come back and start figuring this sh!t out. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 minutes ago, konkapot said:

I might be misusing the word here, but it seems like we are pandering to people who don't currently shoot our sport. 

No, you're absolutely right.

 

 

7 minutes ago, konkapot said:

If people want to try our sport.........they will come and try it with the gun they have. Whatever they have will fit somewhere. They'll shoot, get their pride pounded into the ground, and then either 

 

a. Never come back

b. Come back and start figuring this sh!t out. 

Absolutely right again.

 

The "allow flashlights in P and CO" didn't attract tactitards like whoever thought that was a good idea thought it would. 

 

This won't be any different

 

 

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, deerslayer said:

 I don't think yet another division is necessarily needed, but it would just about be worth it to hear the howling from all the 9mm 2011 fans when they hear major/minor.  

 

i like this idea. as limited declines in popularity, it would be sweet to just slap an optic on my limited gun, and listen to the 9mm sissies cry.

 

it would also be sweet to see all the mfrs rescind their warranty if u shoot 9major.

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

 

That would successfully kill it before it started

then its worth a try, lol

[konkapot]

I work/live in a subset of the tactitard community and there's no rule change or modification that would get them to come out. The .01% that DO come out typically don't come back. 

 

If someone's focus is the flashlight/laser/bayonet/thigh holster the last place they'll come is to a club match. 

[deerslayer]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

Read my post Right above this one, I don't want to have to retype it LOL

 

I respectfully disagree.  Major may have dwindled a bit, but I don't think it's going anywhere.  Lim optics major could boost .40 use and .40 is much easier to buy/load/maintain than major 9 or .38.  .40 is major scoring with less drama, especially in a non-Open gun.  Or maybe people would ignore it.  

 

I would argue that a 2011 shooter does have a slight advantage over S2s etc due to first shot single action.  Disengaging a safety as part of the draw/grip is much easier (for most) than becoming fast and consistent with a DA first shot.  

 

I have no idea why limited optics major would be considered (who is asking for this?), but I do find the idea interesting.  

 

I'm  not afraid to shoot against a 2011 in CO, but I'm not fond of the idea because the people advocating for them also often argue for magwells and 150 major PF.  I think it would hilarious if they finally get their own division (Lim Op), but oops it's major/minor.  

 

A couple questions for whoever-

 

Who is/how many are actually stomping their feet about allowing 2011s in CO?  I haven't actually run across that many people screaming about allowing them.  

 

What would Lim optics major do to Limited?  or Open?

 

Would a major .40 be any harder on a slide mounted dot than 9 minor?

 

If a lim-optics/major division was created, would you shoot it?  With what?  I could see some Limited guns collecting dust in the safe suddenly getting milled.  

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by deerslayer

[Dirty_J]

3 hours ago, Nathanb said:

This is the toughest part.  We’ve got guys like this who are just truly a talent above the GM scale. I’ve shot with some GMs that are unreal and then they go to nationals and get absolutely destroyed by the supers. It really makes you think either the gm bar needs raised or there needs to be a new class for the guys like sailer and nils etc 

Agree completely with this.
 

Super squad shooters should basically shoot amongst themselves. 
 

A-Aron put 15 GM’s below 85%. Nils put 5 GM’s below 85%  

 

That’s a whole different level of shooting. 

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Agree completely with this.
 

Super squad shooters should basically shoot amongst themselves. 
 

A-Aron put 15 GM’s below 85%. Nils put 5 GM’s below 85%  

 

That’s a whole different level of shooting. 

meh. mathematically , i would expect a certain percentage of gms to have a poor match. some noob kid was only a point or 2 behind nils (congrats to scott brown!)

Edited October 16, 2022 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

I think they will probably go with a Minor-only division. Not saying I agree with the concept but I think that is where it’s going to end up.
 

Those with Major Limited guns would not be able to just add a red dot, but would have to buy a new gun. This is the option that the manufacturers would likely prefer, and push for.

 

If they really wanted to try something different they could instead bring back a variation of the old IPSC Modified division that would appeal to both Open and Limited and some CO shooters.

• Slide ride scope
• Porting / compensators allowed but it must fit in a box (or have a max overall length). So adding a short comp would reduce the barrel length.

A division like this would also allow existing CO guns to comply if (for example) they wanted to add magwells to their existing guns.

[Dirty_J]

30 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

meh. mathematically , i would expect a certain percentage of gms to have a poor match. some noob kid was only a point or 2 behind nils (congrats to scott brown!)

Sure. But you’d expect the actual GM’s to be within 15% of the winner. 
 

Either GM’s below 80% need to be relegated or the elite need to be elevated. It’s embarrassing for one to even be compared to the other. 

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Sure. But you’d expect the actual GM’s to be within 15% of the winner. 
 

Either GM’s below 80% need to be relegated or the elite need to be elevated. It’s embarrassing for one to even be compared to the other. 

 

 

I don't think it matters. In fact that's one of the things I like about USPSA, average Joe's going to shoot against the pros Head to Head. The classification system is really just a feel good measure, and we all know there's only going to be about 5 guys that have a legitimate shot to win any Nationals anyway. So no real need to worry about where someone shot in accordance with their classification