Shooting through the crack..

[Dlister70]

There's a wall, and there's a barrel next to the wall to obscure a target.  However, you can see daylight between the barrel and the wall because they're not overlapping or screwed together.

 

If you shoot the target through the gap between the barrel and the wall without hitting the wall or the barrel, is it a hit?  If not, why?

 

Someone cited 2.2.3.4 "Shots cannot be fired though the barrier except at designated shooting ports or other designated openings." because the crack was not a designated shooting port.  I think that rule doesn't apply because you aren't shooting THROUGH a barrier, you are shooting between barriers.  If you shot through the barrel or the wall, then that rule would apply.    

 

Obviously the course designer put the barrel there to make you have to run to a different spot to shoot the target, but they should have overlapped the barrel with the wall to eliminate the gap between them.  I say, if there's a gap, you can shoot through it. 

 

I wasn't even at this match, so I have no dog in the fight.  It's just a discussion that I'm involved in with some other ROs. 

[motosapiens]

Yes, the gap probably should be closed, but putting a barrel next to a wall is imho similar to putting 2 walls next to each other. If there's a tiny space there, and it's not a designated shooting port, it should be assumed to be solid. I get why people want to game it to try to get an advantage, but in the long run all it does is put another burden on the people setting up your local match to try to make the stages more dickproof.

[Sinister4]

barrel and wall with 2-3 inch gap, yup if it helps my time i`ll shoot it, 2 walls butting with tiny gap, nope its a solid, same with a barrel if its tiny gap I view it as solid.   And on the 2-3" barrel gap how do we know it was not done that way to allow a risky shot if you want to try it ?

Edited September 27, 2022 by Sinister4

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

I’d say it’s legal.  
The RM or setup crews of that match should of noticed that and made a fix before the first shot fired.     I’ve seen a lot of gaming on stages I’ve laid out on the ground in the last 3 years of shooting uspsa.    Rule of thumb has always been if you give them an opportunity to do something then someone will take it.  

[BritinUSA]

I think if this is at a L1 match then it would be fair to dictate that shots should not be made through the gap.

 

For higher level matches - with more time for setup - closing that gap would be the better solution.

[Boomstick303]

5 hours ago, Dlister70 said:

I say, if there's a gap, you can shoot through it. 

 

If there is nothing in the written stage brief that you cannot shoot through the gap you can shoot through the gap.  Its up to the stage designer to design the stage in a manner where there is no gap to shoot through if that is indeed their intent, and the RM/MD to make sure their props do not get shot up because of setups like this.  It is not up to the shooter to try and figure out what the exact intent of the stage designer was.  Its how to solve the puzzle in the most efficient manner.  

 

If I see this in the walk throughs before the match I will bring it up, ask them if that was the intent, to the personnel setting up the stage and the RM/MD.  I will also point out if a stage design has the potential to damage props for Level 1 matches.  Level II and up that's on the RM/MD and their staff.    

Edited September 27, 2022 by Boomstick303

[barry]

As a match director,

If not stage intent . declare forbidden action have shooter reshoot it. Fixed

[RJH]

41 minutes ago, barry said:

As a match director,

If not stage intent . declare forbidden action have shooter reshoot it. Fixed

 

Not really the way that rule works

[racerba]

free style...shoot the targets as and when available...

 

[jwhittin]

Up to the RM if they want to “correct” the stage.   If so, fix the stage and have everyone reshoot it.   

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Not really the way that rule works

This^^.   You can’t just declare a forbidden action because someone did something you didn’t want them to do.  

[RJH]

Now I know we've talked about what actually "should" happen, but I'm going to tell you what I see happen in reality 

 

At a level one if somebody shoots through a gap that wasn't supposed to be there, generally they're asked to reshoot or informed that that is a solid plane, same as you can't shoot through snow fencing. Then that guy reshoots it and everybody else is told that the gap isn't really there. And there is no hissy fits, people just shoot it that way and realize that every once in awhile props don't line out and something gets missed, but is okay with it

 

At a level two if that happens on staff day, the stage is corrected and the shooter who shot through the wall reshoots the stage and the match goes on. That's assuming it's nothing egregious and the whole stage has to be tossed or something like that. From what I've seen staff day is always the final way that you prove out stages. If a shooter finds the issue on the big match day, then he just found a loophole in a stage. Everybody after him that wants to then also uses the loophole 

 

 

I know that stuff may not be 100% supported by the rules, but I have seen all of it play out. In fact on staff day at a big match, or at level ones, most of the time if the shooter sees something like that they will just ask before shooting that way the stage can be corrected and there's not a waste of time and ammo.

 

 

 

[barry]

What I basically said but better put.

[broadside72]

My view on things on how I build, RO and RM/MD our matches:

If the props are somehow connected, either velcroed or screwed together or using a shared "foot/stand/support" then any gap is not a port. 

If the props are touching each other somewhere but differences in shapes or condition create a gap (e.g. beat up double stacks of barrels or a wall leaning so that the top is not touching a barrel stack but the bottom is) then it's not a port. 

 

If the props are near each other but there is no contact at all between them and they do not share any supports (e.g. wall feet) then you can "shoot the gap"
 

There is no specific rule covering this but if there is a gap (items not touching) then IMO that is a designated port. If you don't want it shootable, then close the gap or at least make it look like it's not a designated port. 

[GigG]

On 9/27/2022 at 3:07 PM, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

This^^.   You can’t just declare a forbidden action because someone did something you didn’t want them to do.  

 

2.3 Modifications to Course Construction

[Boomstick303]

22 hours ago, broadside72 said:

If the props are touching each other somewhere but differences in shapes or condition create a gap (e.g. beat up double stacks of barrels or a wall leaning so that the top is not touching a barrel stack but the bottom is) then it's not a port.

 

Please help me understand under what rule that this would be the case?  Where I agree seeing day light between props and not considering that an area to shoot through But there is a difference if the props are arranged in a way that a shot is possible.  Maybe not advised but possible. 

 

The OP posted the following.

 

On 9/27/2022 at 9:27 AM, Dlister70 said:

If you shoot the target through the gap between the barrel and the wall without hitting the wall or the barrel, is it a hit?  If not, why?

 

I have not seen anything in the rule set that would prohibit someone from taking that shot.  

[broadside72]

18 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Please help me understand under what rule that this would be the case?  Where I agree seeing day light between props and not considering that an area to shoot through But there is a difference if the props are arranged in a way that a shot is possible.  Maybe not advised but possible. 

https://nroi.org/stage-design/what-makes-a-wall-a-wall/#more-225 says this "Small gaps between wall sections are not designated openings."

So I use this to cover that situation I described and apply it to deformed barrels/props. If they items are not touching at all then I assume there was intent of it being an available shooting position. If they are touching anywhere then I assume it's just a "small gap" and not a designated opening.

 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

https://nroi.org/stage-design/what-makes-a-wall-a-wall/#more-225 says this "Small gaps between wall sections are not designated openings."

 

This discusses the gaps between wall sections.  It does not mention anything about different props sitting next to each other.   If the gap between the barrel and the wall is large enough to feasibly shoot through and it is not mentioned in the written stage briefing not to do so I have not seen a rule that would prevent someone from doing so.  

[broadside72]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This discusses the gaps between wall sections.  It does not mention anything about different props sitting next to each other.   If the gap between the barrel and the wall is large enough to feasibly shoot through and it is not mentioned in the written stage briefing not to do so I have not seen a rule that would prevent someone from doing so.  

So you just assume that a barrel with a dent/deformity in the side that is sitting on top of another barrel that is touching a wall and the dent/deformity is creating a gap between the wall and barrel that is a designated port that you can shoot through? You are saying the area in red is a designated port?

[Sarge]

I tend to just follow the, " if you can see them, you can shoot them", mantra. 

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, broadside72 said:

You are saying the area in red is a designated port?

 

In that instance I would not.  But that is not the instance I imagine what the OP is talking about.  I could be wrong.

 

Difference in terrain could create a situation where a barrel would tilt away from the base of the wall at the top.  Thus making a gap to shoot through.  I have seen this stage setup in matches and exploited.  To where the Stage designer was damn I did not want them to shoot through that gap.  

 

This issue is easy to fix by rotating the barrel to one side or the other of the wall to eliminate any gap.  

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Boomstick303

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

https://nroi.org/stage-design/what-makes-a-wall-a-wall/#more-225 says this "Small gaps between wall sections are not designated openings."

So I use this to cover that situation I described and apply it to deformed barrels/props. If they items are not touching at all then I assume there was intent of it being an available shooting position. If they are touching anywhere then I assume it's just a "small gap" and not a designated opening.

 

 

this is pretty much how we do it at *local* matches. Someone could argue that a barrel and a wall is not the same as 2 wall sections, but unless they show up early for setup and help find every instance like that, they're not going to have much of a leg to stand on at our club.

 

We cheat in other ways too. Sometimes when the ground is frozen, we leave the back fault line off. If a pcc shooter wants to be able to back up way behind where the fault line would be in order to eliminate some positions, we just hand him a hammer and spikes and some fault line sections. At that point, most people are willing to play along with our shortcut rather than do actual work.

 

If no wind is expected, we might not nail a barrel down, but then someone runs into it during walk-through, or during their run and moves it slightly, and next thing you know, there's a gap.  The easiest solution to this problem at local matches is to simply ask.

Edited September 29, 2022 by motosapiens

[ima45dv8]

3 hours ago, broadside72 said:

https://nroi.org/stage-design/what-makes-a-wall-a-wall/#more-225 says this "Small gaps between wall sections are not designated openings."

Nice write up, and a great idea/suggestion, but still not a rule. 

[Nathanb]

Let them game it and don’t say anything. It’ll cost them more in the mental game than if you give them direction. Shoot it as the rule book calls and let them think about it 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 9/27/2022 at 1:07 PM, barry said:

As a match director,

If not stage intent . declare forbidden action have shooter reshoot it. Fixed

 

That's not how it works