Carry optics magazine capacity?

[Jim Watson]

17 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

The rule book says no, but apparently the AC here says yes.

 

That is the one that concerns me, that an AC does not know or chooses not to comply with the rules.

It really sets IDPA up to be sniped by The Other Guys.  Again.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

It really sets IDPA up to be sniped by The Other Guys.  Again.

 

And well deserved.  When your rule book is actually a poorly written suggestions book that hardly anyone (at least locally to me) knows, understands, or enforces, you get what you get.

 

Apperently IDPA will not create a central organization to deliver rule clarifications because that's what IPSC and USPSA have done.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[ddc]

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

And well deserved.  When your rule book is actually a poorly written suggestions book that hardly anyone (at least locally to me) knows, understands, or enforces, you get what you get.

 

Apperently IDPA will not create a central organization to deliver rule clarifications because that's what IPSC and USPSA have done.

 

Yeah, anybody who thinks the "ask your AC" is a good idea needs their head examined.

It's impossible to take them seriously when they put out that sort of direction.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

 

Yeah, anybody who thinks the "ask your AC" is a good idea needs their head examined.

It's impossible to take them seriously when they put out that sort of direction.

 

It's got to be the worst system you can have. Unless you only shoot in your region. But were I live, 2 hours north or south you end up under a different AC and all bets are off. 

[Jim Watson]

I don't recall ever meeting "my" AC, his home range is on the far side of the state.

But I can get to the neighboring area and that AC's home range for one or more matches every month.  

He is thoughtful, helpful, and consistent.

When I ask him about some of this internet crap, he gets it straight.  

 

[deerslayer]

9 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

And well deserved.  When your rule book is actually a poorly written suggestions book that hardly anyone (at least locally to me) knows, understands, or enforces, you get what you get.

 

Apperently IDPA will not create a central organization to deliver rule clarifications because that's what IPSC and USPSA have done.

Well, a lot if this is true, but the rulebook is pretty clear about the question the OP asked. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, deerslayer said:

Well, a lot if this is true, but the rulebook is pretty clear about the question the OP asked. 

 

Which is what makes this whole "the AC says" thing even worse.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

I don't recall ever meeting "my" AC, his home range is on the far side of the state.

But I can get to the neighboring area and that AC's home range for one or more matches every month.  

He is thoughtful, helpful, and consistent.

When I ask him about some of this internet crap, he gets it straight.  

 

 

All of that is besides the point.

[deerslayer]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:12 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Which is what makes this whole "the AC says" thing even worse.

Agreed, but besides the fault line fiasco, the 2022 book is an improvement.  Sometimes it just comes down to people can’t read.  I do wish IDPA would hire a technical writer who is also a competitive shooter for the next rulebook.  

[CGoodwin]

On 9/25/2022 at 5:15 AM, deerslayer said:

Agreed, but besides the fault line fiasco, the 2022 book is an improvement.  Sometimes it just comes down to people can’t read.  I do wish IDPA would hire a technical writer who is also a competitive shooter for the next rulebook.  

Fantastic suggestion! Trying to SO a squad as a volunteer and having rules "lawyers" argue with you FOR A FREAKING LOCAL MATCH, all due to the vague wording of may of the rules...

[Joe4d]

9 minutes ago, CGoodwin said:

Fantastic suggestion! Trying to SO a squad as a volunteer and having rules "lawyers" argue with you FOR A FREAKING LOCAL MATCH, all due to the vague wording of may of the rules...

NEVER argue,,, YOU are in charge,, even as a volunteer SO,, Make he range safe,, score the shooter,,, . Send him to the MD/RM,,,  Be NICE dont lose cool .
"Sir, you are welcome to appeal to the CSO/MD per the rule book, but I need to keep the match moving"   "Clear the range..... "Next Shooter!"
If the shooter wont clear the range,, You have a FTDR or DQ at your disposal for unsportsmanlike, .   I mean dang,, like you said dont have to get crazy,,, But dont get sucked into arguing. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

NEVER argue,,, YOU are in charge,, even as a volunteer SO,, Make he range safe,, score the shooter,,, . Send him to the MD/RM,,,  Be NICE dont lose cool .
"Sir, you are welcome to appeal to the CSO/MD per the rule book, but I need to keep the match moving"   "Clear the range..... "Next Shooter!"
If the shooter wont clear the range,, You have a FTDR or DQ at your disposal for unsportsmanlike, .   I mean dang,, like you said dont have to get crazy,,, But dont get sucked into arguing. 

 

What he said

[Racinready300ex]

On 10/1/2022 at 6:16 PM, Joe4d said:

NEVER argue,,, YOU are in charge,, even as a volunteer SO,, Make he range safe,, score the shooter,,, . Send him to the MD/RM,,,  Be NICE dont lose cool .
"Sir, you are welcome to appeal to the CSO/MD per the rule book, but I need to keep the match moving"   "Clear the range..... "Next Shooter!"
If the shooter wont clear the range,, You have a FTDR or DQ at your disposal for unsportsmanlike, .   I mean dang,, like you said dont have to get crazy,,, But dont get sucked into arguing. 

 

 

This sounds good, but

 

I can see a SO saying he's not debating a rule, telling me to go talk to the MD and then threating a DQ. Followed by expecting me to take the timer because they're almost up.  Then I'll be lmao. Sorry gotta go find the MD, I'll be back before the next stage lol. 

 

At a level 2 and up your plan works better then a local 

[Joe4d]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

This sounds good, but

 

I can see a SO saying he's not debating a rule, telling me to go talk to the MD and then threating a DQ. Followed by expecting me to take the timer because they're almost up.  Then I'll be lmao. Sorry gotta go find the MD, I'll be back before the next stage lol. 

 

At a level 2 and up your plan works better then a local 

So what,, youd be a little brat and want to stand their and argue till you got your way ? Sounds pretty childish... take my ball and leave ? 
I wouldnt just say I am not argueing,, I simply wouldnt... and just ignore you and call the next shooter... and like I said,, give you 1 chance to clear the range.

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

So what,, youd be a little brat and want to stand their and argue till you got your way ? Sounds pretty childish... take my ball and leave ? 
I wouldnt just say I am not argueing,, I simply wouldnt... and just ignore you and call the next shooter... and like I said,, give you 1 chance to clear the range.

 

If you've made a bad call and you're not willing to talk about it. Yeah I'm sure we'll gladly not squad with each other in the future. 

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

So what,, youd be a little brat and want to stand their and argue till you got your way ? Sounds pretty childish... take my ball and leave ? 
I wouldnt just say I am not argueing,, I simply wouldnt... and just ignore you and call the next shooter... and like I said,, give you 1 chance to clear the range.

 

In fact, there are a bunch of guys up here that wont travel to some of the matches down your way because of their experiences in the past. Win, win I guess. 

[Racinready300ex]

24 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In fact, there are a bunch of guys up here that wont travel to some of the matches down your way because of their experiences in the past. Win, win I guess. 

 

I'll quote myself.

 

Thinking about this, some of it goes back to the AC thing. We're under a different AC than they are/were. Our guys that travel take it seriously and when a match is running the rules differently but per their AC and handing out FP's like candy it can leave a bad taste with people. I saw more FP's in one match then my whole IDPA carrier combined. lol it was amazing really. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[ddc]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'll quote myself.

 

Thinking about this, some of it goes back to the AC thing. We're under a different AC than they are/were. Our guys that travel take it seriously and when a match is running the rules differently but per their AC and handing out FP's like candy it can leave a bad taste with people. I saw more FP's in one match then my whole IDPA carrier combined. lol it was amazing really. 

 

And somehow IDPA believes this sort of confusion is not a problem. Smack my head.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

WTF editing posts in this software is a nightmare.......

Edited October 3, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

If you've made a bad call and you're not willing to talk about it.

 

In USPSA, at least, I'm not going to delay the squad arguing with someone who thinks he's right.  Just like Joe, I'll tell the shooter to take it up to the MD (level 1) or the RM (level 2+).

 

Whether they do or they don't, or whether they return or they don't, is not important to me at that point.

[Boomstick303]

Is there ever a proper time to have an argument with the RO or Scoring RO if they call a DQ?  

 

The shooter should ask the RO/Scoring RO who called the DQ what the infraction was and are they 100% sure they saw what they think they saw to make the call. If the RO/Scoring RO is 100% sure and can cite the appropriate rule in the rule book, there is no other discussion.  If you as the shooter feel there was an incorrect call or the RO/Scoring RO uses the term I think you take that to the RM/MD.   It does no one any good to argue the call.  Others are there to shoot.  

 

I have been DQ'd where I thought I was within the rules and should not have been, but I did not argue because you are not changing anyone's mind.  

 

If the RO/Scoring RO utters the term, "I think" and/or applied the rules improperly then its up to the RM/MD to override the call.  

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

In USPSA, at least, I'm not going to delay the squad arguing with someone who thinks he's right.  Just like Joe, I'll tell the shooter to take it up to the MD (level 1) or the RM (level 2+).

 

Whether they do or they don't, or whether they return or they don't, is not important to me at that point.

 

I don't really see many arguments in USPSA because the rules are pretty clear. In fact I don't know that I've ever seen one at a club match.

 

This being a IDPA thread I think it's a little different. I've gotten PE's on many occasions that weren't based on the current rules, or any rule for that matter. USPSA should take note, if you constantly change rules people get confused. That and IDPA's rules aren't written the best leads to some misunderstandings. It's not crazy to be at a club match with 5 or 6 SO's on the squad and be split on a call as to whether it's right or not. 

 

I've even shown people the rule "look here's what it says in the book"...and the response be "yeah, but the AC say this". It's a vary different world. 

[Boomstick303]

Anytime you have a sport where rules are left to interpretation of a human you gets these results.

 

 

[Joe4d]

A shooter stating a case, and me giving it a second look isnt what I consider arguing,,, But alot of people  want to stand there and keep ranting.., or try to bully an RO and usually its the Hotshot GM  thats doing it... Umm nope,, not doing that.  
ALso had people want to start ranting about something while still holding a gun... I WILLNOT reply in any way, but ,, the "If you are done unload show clear"  Nothing gets said, discussed or anything until the range is clear. Usually that happens when Mr Hotshot had a bad run and there was a REF or something.
I agree IDPA rulebook has always been a hot mess,,, You do th ebest you can,, take a look at it , score the shooter, move on.. 

[GOF]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:09 PM, ddc said:

 

And somehow IDPA believes this sort of confusion is not a problem. Smack my head.

I am coming to the belief, based upon 17-years experience under both Bill Wilson and Joyce Fowler leadership, that the current IDPA leadership doesn't care if it is a problem as long as members keep sending in their annual dues, and the clubs keep sending theirs. Given the membership drop and the clubs canceling, that doesn't seem to be a winning strategy for IDPA.