Carry optics magazine capacity?

[Twilk73]

Can I start a stage with only 10 rounds in the gun? Ok so I know you can start loaded as in 1 in the chamber and 10 in the magazine unless otherwise stated. However can I choose to start with 1 in the chamber and 9 in the magazine or would that get a penalty? Or would I have to start on an empty chamber to only use 10 Rounds?
 

I’m sure this sounds dumb but it’s all about calculating when I reload so that I can avoid reloading under slide lock if possible. 

[dapribek]

Yes,  no penalty if you do that in USPSA, but you must load to capacity in IDPA. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by dapribek
Accuracy

[Jim Watson]

Disagree, you may not fudge your load out so as to schedule reloads.

 

8.1.2 Magazine Loading: All magazines must be loaded to division capacity (or their maximum capacity if smaller) at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:

8.1.2.1  If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match with the exception of PCC. 8.1.2.2  The stage description may require reduced magazine loading for standard stages and the initial start of a scenario stage. 8.1.2.3  In the Revolver division, the shooter must load the revolver and all loading devices with the same number of rounds throughout the match unless the above loading exceptions apply.

8.1.3 Rules for Magazine Division Capacity

8.1.3.1  SSP, 8.1.3.2  ESP, CO, CCP 8.1.3.3  CDP, 8.1.3.4  REV, BUG-S 8.1.3.5  BUG-R 8.1.3.6  PCC 10 8.1.3.7  PCC 15 rounds* 10 rounds 8 rounds 6 rounds** 5 rounds 10 rounds 30 rounds*

* Match directors may be required to lower the magazine and division capacity to comply with State or local laws. In these cases, the MD is required to publish this announcement ahead of a match.

**In all semi-auto divisions except BUG-S, the shooter will also start with one additional round in the chamber, unless the stage description requires otherwise.

[BJB]

41 minutes ago, Twilk73 said:

Can I start a stage with only 10 rounds in the gun? Ok so I know you can start loaded as in 1 in the chamber and 10 in the magazine unless otherwise stated. However can I choose to start with 1 in the chamber and 9 in the magazine or would that get a penalty? Or would I have to start on an empty chamber to only use 10 Rounds?
 

I’m sure this sounds dumb but it’s all about calculating when I reload so that I can avoid reloading under slide lock if possible. 

Yes, @dapribek is correct, you can start with 10+1 or 9+1 if you choose. Don't listen to this other nonsense. If you're shooting Lo-cap, go ahead and make a habit of barneying up and starting 10+1 each stage.  That way everything is the same each stage .

[Twilk73]

19 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Disagree, you may not fudge your load out so as to schedule reloads.

 

8.1.2 Magazine Loading: All magazines must be loaded to division capacity (or their maximum capacity if smaller) at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:

8.1.2.1  If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match with the exception of PCC. 8.1.2.2  The stage description may require reduced magazine loading for standard stages and the initial start of a scenario stage. 8.1.2.3  In the Revolver division, the shooter must load the revolver and all loading devices with the same number of rounds throughout the match unless the above loading exceptions apply.

8.1.3 Rules for Magazine Division Capacity

8.1.3.1  SSP, 8.1.3.2  ESP, CO, CCP 8.1.3.3  CDP, 8.1.3.4  REV, BUG-S 8.1.3.5  BUG-R 8.1.3.6  PCC 10 8.1.3.7  PCC 15 rounds* 10 rounds 8 rounds 6 rounds** 5 rounds 10 rounds 30 rounds*

* Match directors may be required to lower the magazine and division capacity to comply with State or local laws. In these cases, the MD is required to publish this announcement ahead of a match.

**In all semi-auto divisions except BUG-S, the shooter will also start with one additional round in the chamber, unless the stage description requires otherwise.

There it is the double asterix, I miss that when going through the rules earlier thank you.

[Racinready300ex]

The rule book says no, but apparently the AC here says yes. The key being you must load the same way for every stage. 

 

The rule book is really a suggestion book in IDPA. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

At my local club they say division capacity means 10 plus 1 at the start if loaded before the start signal.    I’ve been hit with a procedural for doing exactly what you’re talking about.  Loading to 10 or 9 plus one to have an advantageous reload opportunity 

Edited September 22, 2022 by OpenshooterAclass4lyfe
Misspelled something

[Racinready300ex]

34 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

At my local club they say division capacity means 10 plus 1 at the start if loaded before the start signal.    I’ve been hit with a procedural for doing exactly what you’re talking about.  Loading to 10 or 9 plus one to have an advantageous reload opportunity 

 

I can't see how there is a advantage under the current rules to download so I don't get why people want to do it. Most of the time you'll be hurting yourself. 

 

To make it legal you need to load every mag to 9 all day long. You can't pick and choose. To make it completely legal by the book you need one mag that can only hold 9, then load all mags to 9 all day. You could easily modify a mag so it'll only hold 9 rounds. 

 

You'll probably have to explain what you're doing to avoid a PE. And you may need to cite the rule above. Naturally the SO is going to assume you should have 10+1 like everyone else. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[ddc]

10 hours ago, dapribek said:

Yes,  no penalty if you do that. 

 

wrong

[ddc]

9 hours ago, BJB said:

Yes, @dapribek is correct, you can start with 10+1 or 9+1 if you choose. Don't listen to this other nonsense. If you're shooting Lo-cap, go ahead and make a habit of barneying up and starting 10+1 each stage.  That way everything is the same each stage .

 

wrong

[Jim Watson]

There is a guy at one club near here who cannot be bothered to load 10+1.  I don't know if the SO fails to notice it or just doesn't care because he is not a real good shot and it makes no difference in the results or does not himself know the rule.

 

I have a gun with 9 round magazines and when I shoot it, I always explain that I am at maximum with 9+1.  

I don't do that any more, the increase to SSP 15 has led to longer stages and I need all the help I can get for a steady diet of 17 and 18 round stages.

 

[ddc]

3 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

 

 

I have a gun with 9 round magazines and when I shoot it, I always explain that I am at maximum with 9+1.  

 

 

 

Yes, that is the only way to legally load less than 10 for CO/ESP (other than a downloaded start). I'm surprised this is even a discussion.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by ddc
Added clarification for downloaded start

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I can't see how there is a advantage under the current rules to download so I don't get why people want to do it. Most of the time you'll be hurting yourself. 

 

To make it legal you need to load every mag to 9 all day long. You can't pick and choose. To make it completely legal by the book you need one mag that can only hold 9, then load all mags to 9 all day. You could easily modify a mag so it'll only hold 9 rounds. 

 

You'll probably have to explain what you're doing to avoid a PE. And you may need to cite the rule above. Naturally the SO is going to assume you should have 10+1 like everyone else. 

When I did it I did it I wasn’t aware of the rule that the magazine had to have 10 in it at the start signal.  There was a stage with 10 shots in one array then movement to another position to engage with 8 more shots.  

[Jim Watson]

That should have been one of those rules learned "3 seconds at a time."  A PE with explanation why you got it.

 

And now you may make a "Cooper Reload" = last round reload, dropping an empty magazine out from under a loaded chamber.

So load 10+1, shoot five pairs, reload for the next array.  I have about got that into reflex and do it at every opportunity.  

Edited September 22, 2022 by Jim Watson

[GOF]

There is no longer a penalty for "round dumping". So if you have to load10+1 and just want 10 before you make your slide lock reload --- just triple tap one target. 

[Racinready300ex]

24 minutes ago, GOF said:

There is no longer a penalty for "round dumping". So if you have to load10+1 and just want 10 before you make your slide lock reload --- just triple tap one target. 

 

That was the most common approach before they allowed you to reload with a round in the chamber. Now that you can do that, going to slide lock after 10 shots is costing you time instead of helping you. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Yes, that is the only way to legally load less than 10 for CO/SSP (other than a downloaded start). I'm surprised this is even a discussion.

 

 

Apparently my AC thinks differently, so as all things IDPA YMMV. 

 

But, per the rule book you're correct. 

[GOF]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That was the most common approach before they allowed you to reload with a round in the chamber. Now that you can do that, going to slide lock after 10 shots is costing you time instead of helping you. 

Reloading with a round in the chamber is called a "reload with retention". It's been around forever in IDPA.... all the way back to 2005, when I started shooting IDPA. It's also slower than slide lock because if there is a round in the chamber you have to remove the current magazine, even if it is empty, then stow that magazine, and then grab the new one and shove it in. Its slower than a straight slide lock reload. 

A slide lock reload involves less movements that can be screwed up, is more positive, and is faster. Did you not know that?

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Apparently my AC thinks differently, so as all things IDPA YMMV. 

 

But, per the rule book you're correct. 

 

I guess I'm not all that surprised that an AC would have it wrong but I am disappointed.

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, GOF said:

Reloading with a round in the chamber is called a "reload with retention". It's been around forever in IDPA.... all the way back to 2005, when I started shooting IDPA. It's also slower than slide lock because if there is a round in the chamber you have to remove the current magazine, even if it is empty, then stow that magazine, and then grab the new one and shove it in. Its slower than a straight slide lock reload. 

A slide lock reload involves less movements that can be screwed up, is more positive, and is faster. Did you not know that?

 

You haven't IDPA'd lately huh?

 

You can now drop a empty mag on the ground with a round in the chamber and carry on with no PE. The old speed reload is now legal. 

[ddc]

27 minutes ago, GOF said:

Reloading with a round in the chamber is called a "reload with retention". It's been around forever in IDPA.... all the way back to 2005, when I started shooting IDPA. It's also slower than slide lock because if there is a round in the chamber you have to remove the current magazine, even if it is empty, then stow that magazine, and then grab the new one and shove it in. Its slower than a straight slide lock reload. 

A slide lock reload involves less movements that can be screwed up, is more positive, and is faster. Did you not know that?

 

Check the rule book.

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, ddc said:

 

I guess I'm not all that surprised that an AC would have it wrong but I am disappointed.

 

Yeah I argued with a someone locally, because the rule is pretty clear. But in the end people do what the AC says.  

[Joe4d]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I can't see how there is a advantage under the current rules to download so I don't get why people want to do it. Most of the time you'll be hurting yourself. 

 

To make it legal you need to load every mag to 9 all day long. You can't pick and choose. To make it completely legal by the book you need one mag that can only hold 9, then load all mags to 9 all day. You could easily modify a mag so it'll only hold 9 rounds. 

 

You'll probably have to explain what you're doing to avoid a PE. And you may need to cite the rule above. Naturally the SO is going to assume you should have 10+1 like everyone else. 

I think with the current rules, you are probably correct no 9 +1 advantage like there used to be.
However back during the national 10 round only days a BUNCH of guns came with Mecgar 10 round mags, that were cut down and had a plastic block on the bottom. Yes you could get 10 in them,, but no way to do a slide forward reload... 
Had a couple issues when I first started shooting with a couple range nazis when I was shooting a Browning Hipower 40.  Just kept the manual in my bag,, as the manual said.
Capacity... 10 rounds... Including 1 in chamber...  Had a Walther P99 same way with the plastic block mags it came with,, Would just barely squeeze in 10. But for that gun you could get prebans..

With the recent discussions I can see folks with 9mm , 10 and 40 1911's wanting to run 9+1...  But that shouldnt be an issue because it is pretty standard capacity. 

 

[GOF]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You haven't IDPA'd lately huh?

 

You can now drop a empty mag on the ground with a round in the chamber and carry on with no PE. The old speed reload is now legal. 

You're right. I haven't lately. I guess that's because Joyce keeps quickly changing the rules in a desperate attempt to stay relevant and prevent further membership losses. She's lost a bunch since she took over, and since IDPA is a for profit company she can't afford to lose too many more if she wants to keep gas in her plane.  

[BJB]

21 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Disagree, you may not fudge your load out so as to schedule reloads.

 

8.1.2 Magazine Loading: All magazines must be loaded to division capacity (or their maximum capacity if smaller) at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:

8.1.2.1  If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match with the exception of PCC. 8.1.2.2  The stage description may require reduced magazine loading for standard stages and the initial start of a scenario stage. 8.1.2.3  In the Revolver division, the shooter must load the revolver and all loading devices with the same number of rounds throughout the match unless the above loading exceptions apply.

8.1.3 Rules for Magazine Division Capacity

8.1.3.1  SSP, 8.1.3.2  ESP, CO, CCP 8.1.3.3  CDP, 8.1.3.4  REV, BUG-S 8.1.3.5  BUG-R 8.1.3.6  PCC 10 8.1.3.7  PCC 15 rounds* 10 rounds 8 rounds 6 rounds** 5 rounds 10 rounds 30 rounds*

* Match directors may be required to lower the magazine and division capacity to comply with State or local laws. In these cases, the MD is required to publish this announcement ahead of a match.

**In all semi-auto divisions except BUG-S, the shooter will also start with one additional round in the chamber, unless the stage description requires otherwise.

 

 

@Jim Watson

I own you an apology Jim. You are right and I was wrong. 

I perused these posts late last night and I think it's fairly obvious I didn't even bother to check what category this thread was posted under, opened my mouth, and sounded like a douche bag. 

 

 

I drove 850 miles today, got home, saw all the notifications & e-mails, realized something was wrong, looked and realized I was barking up the wrong tree.