Time to Rejigger SC Divisions?

[JM_]

1 minute ago, GOF said:

IMHO, the large number of divisions allow lots of shooter, at any age, to compete with what they have- against shooters with similar equipment. What's wrong that?

That's the problem. At State level matches if you shoot SS/PROD/LTD you might not even compete against anyone. How can you shoot against people of similar equipment if no one else is shooting that division?

[motosapiens]

It would at least be reasonable to have the option (and maybe that option already exists) to combine similar divisions when there aren't enough numbers to recognize a division.

[Squirrel45]

I'd love to run revos/open/Production if one could afford enough primers to practice and compete. 4 years ago I went though 15k+primers of  small/large pistol. I now run mostly RF with some CF . Basically a 180degree flip for me. RF is going to be the future I think. 

[GOF]

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

That's the problem. At State level matches if you shoot SS/PROD/LTD you might not even compete against anyone. How can you shoot against people of similar equipment if no one else is shooting that division?

OK. So, if no one is shooting SS or Production and you have one of those guns... why not just enter in Limited? They fit. And, Steel Challenge only requires a five- round string, and a reload off the clock for the next string, so magazine capacity isn't nearly as important as it is in USPSA. Or, just be the only one in your division and be Division Champion! This isn't rocket science. But it does give a lota folks a lota opportunity to compete with the guns they have. That may be why SCSA continues to grow. 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, GOF said:

OK. So, if no one is shooting SS or Production and you have one of those guns... why not just enter in Limited? They fit. And, Steel Challenge only requires a five- round string, and a reload off the clock for the next string, so magazine capacity isn't nearly as important as it is in USPSA. Or, just be the only one in your division and be Division Champion! This isn't rocket science. But it does give a lota folks a lota opportunity to compete with the guns they have. That may be why SCSA continues to grow. 

So instead of fixing the issue you want to just ignore it, got it. Want to know the best thing about consolidating to Centerfire Optics and Centerfire Limited? Literally ANY gun and holster setup on the market would fit in! Now everyone can have fun and compete against each other, because its a sport and there's supposed to be competition, not participation awards if you're the only one who shoots a division.

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, GOF said:

. Or, just be the only one in your division and be Division Champion!

 

*if* the MD decides to recognize a division with less than 5 people (I wouldn't). And that's only at a tier 2 match you get the choice. At an area match, you need 10 to recognize a division, period.

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, GOF said:

IMHO, the large number of divisions allow lots of shooter, at any age, to compete with what they have- against shooters with similar equipment. What's wrong that?

because you have multiple divisions with the same equipment. 5 shot strings, and no power factor make it stupid to use the same division another game uses that has power factor and capacity rules.
Zero  difference between a SS, LTD or Production gun if you remove capacity and power factor from the game.  Little to no difference between CO and Open at sub minor PF

 

[STELLARTONE]

No.

 

Leave it.

 

Shoot what you want.

[STELLARTONE]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:44 AM, blackss06 said:

The peak time for production is 94.5s and the peak time for ltd is 90. The peak time for ISR is 104. They aren’t even in the same ballpark at the upper levels of the game. There was a 20 second difference in the WSSC time between ltd and ISR, both shot by world champions. 
 

I’ll gladly race you with my revolvers any time.

 

Putting my eggs in one basket on this guy.

 

 

 

 

[hornetx40]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:13 PM, ZackJones said:

Oversight. Even kings make mistakes. ISR and OSR included. I like shooting a revolver. 

this makes more sense than the current divisions. Its drag racing so let it be that. The only other option that should be allowed is holster placement should be unlimited in SCSA.

 

[zzt]

6 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

The only other option that should be allowed is holster placement should be unlimited in SCSA.

 

It already is.  Rule 5.1.

[hornetx40]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

 

It already is.  Rule 5.1.

my mistake, I thought there was still division specific placement.

[Gregg K]

1 hour ago, hornetx40 said:

my mistake, I thought there was still division specific placement.

There still is ... 5.1.2

[10mmdave]

Here's the rule for holsters, looks like it's just like USPSA

Looks like the rules kind of contradict themselves with the wording in 5.1 and then you see 5.1.2 ?? (though that is the rule the rule lawyers will bring up)

 

CHAPTER 5 – Competitor Equipment Rules
5.1 Holsters
In general, holsters shall be mounted at the waist, must cover the trigger, and must safely hold/retain the gun. All Centerfire handguns must be appropriate for holster use. Female competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level.
5.1.1 Rimfire competition does not involve the use of a holster. It is permissible for a Rimfire pistol to be transported between stages in a holster. Either a gun case or a holster must be used for transport.
5.1.2 Division-specific holster restrictions may apply. See Appendix D1 through D9 for division-specific information.
5.1.3 Due to the unique nature of the Steel Challenge, drawing from concealment or from inside the waist band is not allowed.
5.1.4 The use of 3-gun carts for transporting Rimfire Rifles and Pistol Caliber Carbines is permitted at all match levels. The long gun must be flagged at all times.

[10mmdave]

38 minutes ago, 10mmdave said:

Here's the rule for holsters, looks like it's just like USPSA

Looks like the rules kind of contradict themselves with the wording in 5.1 and then you see 5.1.2 ?? (though that is the rule the rule lawyers will bring up)

 

CHAPTER 5 – Competitor Equipment Rules
5.1 Holsters
In general, holsters shall be mounted at the waist, must cover the trigger, and must safely hold/retain the gun. All Centerfire handguns must be appropriate for holster use. Female competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level.
5.1.1 Rimfire competition does not involve the use of a holster. It is permissible for a Rimfire pistol to be transported between stages in a holster. Either a gun case or a holster must be used for transport.
5.1.2 Division-specific holster restrictions may apply. See Appendix D1 through D9 for division-specific information.
5.1.3 Due to the unique nature of the Steel Challenge, drawing from concealment or from inside the waist band is not allowed.
5.1.4 The use of 3-gun carts for transporting Rimfire Rifles and Pistol Caliber Carbines is permitted at all match levels. The long gun must be flagged at all times.

Sorry, my bad folks, it does look like most restrictions have been removed per Appendix D1-D9 in 2021 SCSA Rule Book

 

APPENDIX D1 – Open Division 1	Minimum power factor for Major	NA for Steel Challenge
11	Rule 5.1 applies	Yes
12	Restriction on position of holster and other equipment	No

 

APPENDIX D2 – Limited Division 1	Minimum power factor for Major	NA for Steel Challenge
11	Rule 5.1 applies	Yes
12	Restriction on position of holster and other equipment	No

 

APPENDIX D4 – Production Division 1	Minimum power factor for Major	NA for Steel Challenge
10	Max. distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt	Handgun and Mags: 2 1/8” (width of an overlay)
11	Rule 5.1 applies	Yes
12	Restriction on position of holster and other equipment	No
20	Holster and magazine holder restrictions	• Suitable for everyday use. “Race gun” type holster prohibited.   • May not be manufactured or cut lower than, and must cover the slide up to, 1/2” below the ejection port (belt slide “Yaqui” type holster exempt).
• Revolver holsters open no lower than halfway down the cylinder. • The drop offset type holster is allowed in production Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt.      Not going to cut & paste the others, you should get the idea.

Edited October 2, 2022 by 10mmdave

[zzt]

Yes.  I was told this circular logic would be coming out in the new (then) rules.  Basically, you wear your holster wherever you want with few constraints.  Same with mag pouches.  USPSA said rules, rules.  SCSA said anywhere you want.  USPSA eventually followed.

[10mmdave]

On 10/2/2022 at 6:04 PM, zzt said:

Yes.  I was told this circular logic would be coming out in the new (then) rules.  Basically, you wear your holster wherever you want with few constraints.  Same with mag pouches.  USPSA said rules, rules.  SCSA said anywhere you want.  USPSA eventually followed.

We see so many posts and hear so many opinions I wanted to post the answer in black & white,

at 1st glance one would think they are the same until you read the appendix of both rule sets.

[Thomas H]

On 9/18/2022 at 4:20 PM, Toolguy said:

That's why I don't shoot USPSA. They hate revolver shooters. I have shot Bullseye, PPC, IDPA, Metallic Silhouette, Bowling Pins, NRA Action Pistol, and ICORE. They are all friendly and accommodating to everyone. I tried USPSA for a while. Nowhere else have I gotten the derision, dirty tricks, and downright hatefulness as I did from that bunch. And heaven forbid if you should have a good day and outshoot some of them with a revo. That just dials it up. Thankfully they are not the only game in town. There aren't more revo shooters because they actively run them off.

 

That's interesting--I see you are in Kansas City.  The Mill Creek club nearby has a number of revolver shooters who enjoy USPSA, and the recent Free State (level 2) USPSA Championship had enough revolvers to fill their own squad (and then some).

 

So...you might try USPSA out there.  They don't hate revolver shooters.

 

 

[Joe4d]

35 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

That's interesting--I see you are in Kansas City.  The Mill Creek club nearby has a number of revolver shooters who enjoy USPSA, and the recent Free State (level 2) USPSA Championship had enough revolvers to fill their own squad (and then some).

 

So...you might try USPSA out there.  They don't hate revolver shooters.

 

 

I started shooting at Capitol City.. Topeka area...  Granted Steel challenge,,, but most of the shooters I met also  shoot USPSA and there is also actually ICORE in the area.. I shot revolver and think I was only one,,, But really would be surprised if the people I have met in the area feel or act negative towards any platform...  Maybe I am oblivious,, just seemed like a fun day at the range to me.   

 

[varminter22]

On 9/19/2022 at 5:42 PM, motosapiens said:

everyone hates revolver (not revolver shooters, just revolvers and anyone that is currently wasting everyone’s time by shooting one).

 

You must be joking, or are a joker.  That is an asinine comment.

[varminter22]

On 9/19/2022 at 6:50 AM, Joe4d said:

...
Revolvers seem to fit steel challenge fairly well.  In USPSA its like being a 1 legged man at an ass kicking contest.  

Why would you say that?  Everyone is (supposedly) shooting only against others in their division/class, are they not?  

[revolver45]

1 hour ago, varminter22 said:

You must be joking, or are a joker.  That is an asinine comment.

Obviously this ignorance is coming from people who can't shoot a revolver. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, varminter22 said:

You must be joking, or are a joker.  That is an asinine comment.

You guys sure get your feelers hurt easily.

2 minutes ago, revolver45 said:

Obviously this ignorance is coming from people who can't shoot a revolver. 

I can shoot a revolver (well enough to finish in the top half of a revo-only match). I just choose not to.

[varminter22]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You guys sure get your feelers hurt easily.

No hurt feelings.  Just astounded by your comment.

[revolver45]

46 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You guys sure get your feelers hurt easily.

I can shoot a revolver (well enough to finish in the top half of a revo-only match). I just choose not to.

BS.