Time to Rejigger SC Divisions?

[RickT]

Is SC destined to be nearly aligned with USPSA with regard to divisions?  The current entries to the Idaho State Championship.  This may not be typical of other parts of the country but it sure looks like something can (should?) be done with the CO/LTD/PROD/SS collection.  LTD, PROD, and SS shooters must all be fans of iron sights or of the specific platform they shoot.  What's the rationale for not combining these three divisions with allowance for features akin to those available in limited.  I don't shoot Production, but the allowable changes seem to just fall short of compensators(?).  Is there a sponsorship angle that keeps these divisions, inertia, disinterest or other?

[revolver45]

You will see that SC caters to 4 divisions only. PCC; RIMFIRE; OPEN and CO. They really don't care about the rest if the classes. 

[ZackJones]

 

 

1 hour ago, RickT said:

Is SC destined to be nearly aligned with USPSA with regard to divisions?  

 

No we have our divisions independent of USPSA handgun that's why we have 13 and they have 8. There could be any number of reasons why some divisions are better represented than others. At WSSC this year we recognized 12 of the 13 divisions and ISR was short 2 guns from being recognized. 

 

If I were king for a day and staring a new shooting sport like steel challenge I'd have 8 divisions only: 

Centerfire Open / Irons

PCC Open / Irons

Rimfire Pistol Open / Irons

Rimfire Rifle Open / Irons

 

1 hour ago, revolver45 said:

You will see that SC caters to 4 divisions only. PCC; RIMFIRE; OPEN and CO. They really don't care about the rest if the classes. 

You are wrong. We (USPSA) do not cater to any one division. We actively encourage people to shoot them all. That's one reason why we have club 13 so that competitors have an opportunity to shoot every division offered. 

[Joe4d]

22 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

 

 

No we have our divisions independent of USPSA handgun that's why we have 13 and they have 8. There could be any number of reasons why some divisions are better represented than others. At WSSC this year we recognized 12 of the 13 divisions and ISR was short 2 guns from being recognized. 

 

If I were king for a day and staring a new shooting sport like steel challenge I'd have 8 divisions only: 

Centerfire Open / Irons

PCC Open / Irons

Rimfire Pistol Open / Irons

Rimfire Rifle Open / Irons

 

You are wrong. We (USPSA) do not cater to any one division. We actively encourage people to shoot them all. That's one reason why we have club 13 so that competitors have an opportunity to shoot every division offered. 

Id be happy with that, other than no revolver division.

 

[revolver45]

USPSA has never been pro revolver. Their excuse has always been that there are not enough shooters in the division. Maybe if they promoted it half as much as the others they would fit more participants. 

[Toolguy]

That's why I don't shoot USPSA. They hate revolver shooters. I have shot Bullseye, PPC, IDPA, Metallic Silhouette, Bowling Pins, NRA Action Pistol, and ICORE. They are all friendly and accommodating to everyone. I tried USPSA for a while. Nowhere else have I gotten the derision, dirty tricks, and downright hatefulness as I did from that bunch. And heaven forbid if you should have a good day and outshoot some of them with a revo. That just dials it up. Thankfully they are not the only game in town. There aren't more revo shooters because they actively run them off.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Toolguy

[revolver45]

Same here. That's why as of next season our Club will be an ICORE and Rimfire Challenge Club and we are letting USPSA Steel Challenge expire. 

[Gregg K]

14 hours ago, revolver45 said:

Same here. That's why as of next season our Club will be an ICORE and Rimfire Challenge Club and we are letting USPSA Steel Challenge expire. 

Then people will say, "why does that ICORE and Rimfire Challenge Challenge club hate PCC and centerfire pistol shooters". Just saying..

I actually did think about the Rimfire Challenge but didn't want to limit myself to rimfre only.

[revolver45]

2 hours ago, Gregg K said:

Then people will say, "why does that ICORE and Rimfire Challenge Challenge club hate PCC and centerfire pistol shooters". Just saying..

I actually did think about the Rimfire Challenge but didn't want to limit myself to rimfre only.

People who shoot Rimfire Challenge know that it's Rimfire only and like it that way.  Same with ICORE. People shoot it because it is for revolvers only. 

[Joe4d]

USPSA is a completely different game than steel challenge..
Revolvers seem to fit steel challenge fairly well.  In USPSA its like being a 1 legged man at an ass kicking contest.  

[Toolguy]

I don't hate anyone. It's about behavior, not type of gun. My shooting time and budget is limited. I do it to have a good time with friends and destress. You can't do that in the middle of an antagonistic group of people who don't want to be friends. Trying to make that work ruins what little recreational time I get. In every other shooting sport, I can relax and enjoy the company.

[Joe4d]

Sorry that you have experienced that.  I guess you just hit the wrong place.. I have shot IDPA, IPSC USPSA outlaw steel  and Pins and just now getting into steel challenge all over the country and a couple other countries and havent noticed that or even anyone batting an eye at a revolver shooter. 
I see Kansas City in your name I just moved to Marion Kansas,, Probably be a capitol city steel match out side Topeka... 
Last month I won my division,, ! the other revolver guys gun broke... LOL.. I will be there with my 686..
 

 

[Toolguy]

Maybe I'll see you at a match someday Joe! Welcome to Kansas.

[ZackJones]

On 9/18/2022 at 5:01 PM, Joe4d said:

Id be happy with that, other than no revolver division.]

Oversight. Even kings make mistakes. ISR and OSR included. I like shooting a revolver. 

[motosapiens]

On 9/18/2022 at 3:20 PM, Toolguy said:

That's why I don't shoot USPSA. They hate revolver shooters. 

everyone hates revolver (not revolver shooters, just revolvers and anyone that is currently wasting everyone’s time by shooting one).

 

imho, steel challenge needs to combine all centerfire iron sights divisions (real divisions, not revo) into one. ive shot ss guns, prod guns and limited guns at major steel matches, and there is no difference. i just shoot whatever i’m shooting in uspsa at the time.

 

wrt the original post, i am signed up for limited (with a ss gun) at idaho state, but since theres no heat and primers are expensive, im swithing to rfpi.

[blackss06]

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

everyone hates revolver (not revolver shooters, just revolvers and anyone that is currently wasting everyone’s time by shooting one).

 

imho, steel challenge needs to combine all centerfire iron sights divisions (real divisions, not revo) into one. ive shot ss guns, prod guns and limited guns at major steel matches, and there is no difference. i just shoot whatever i’m shooting in uspsa at the time.

 

wrt the original post, i am signed up for limited (with a ss gun) at idaho state, but since theres no heat and primers are expensive, im swithing to rfpi.

The peak time for production is 94.5s and the peak time for ltd is 90. The peak time for ISR is 104. They aren’t even in the same ballpark at the upper levels of the game. There was a 20 second difference in the WSSC time between ltd and ISR, both shot by world champions. 
 

I’ll gladly race you with my revolvers any time.

[JM_]

I think if I had it my way, I would treat centerfire like rimfire. Everything is allowed for both divisions, only difference being that one allows an optic and the other doesn't. Comps, porting, thumb rests, everything goes (I would be ok though no allowing comps, porting). Race holsters allowed for both, because its a speed sport. And then keep one umbrella revolver division, anything goes. There's not enough participation to allow both irons and optics. 

 

With there being no power factor in this sport, the irons (SS, Prod, Limited) can all be competitive against each other. All those divisions allow thumb rests in a way anyways.

And The only difference between CO and Open is comps and single action. 2022 WSSC's (ignoring KC because he's nuts) Open and CO were only 3 seconds apart. No power factor means comps hardly make a difference.

 

I personally reached Open GM with a Ported Staccato with a slide mounted optic. And I bet I could've done it with a Carry Optics gun and a race holster. Draws are the difference between M and GM.

 

This would mean there is more competition at matches. No more comparing yourself to only 2 or 3 other people in your division. I think if large matches started giving out Centerfire Optics and Centerfire Limited awards, people might start to warm up to the idea. Maybe do this at Worlds as an unofficial award.

 

@ZackJones Maybe this should be brought to light a little more with the BoD and the community? As for the club 13 and world records, its a cool thing, but times change and people will need to accept that. Centerfire is slowly dying, and there are many divisions that make no sense for SCSA. Steel Master still holds its value even after these changes. A SCSA BoD would make more sense for decisions like this. 

[zzt]

I don't see centerfire as slowly dying.  The only centerfire difference I see at matches is people switching Division because they have ammo for that one.  When primers come back down I expect to see people going back to what they prefer to shoot.

 

The only other change is a lot more factory 9mm being shot.  You can buy as much as you want as long as you are willing to pay the price.  I switched myself, even though factory it is not optimal in my Open gun.  I do it because it saves primers, which I'd rather use for my USPSA 9mm major loads.

[JM_]

12 minutes ago, zzt said:

I don't see centerfire as slowly dying.  The only centerfire difference I see at matches is people switching Division because they have ammo for that one.  When primers come back down I expect to see people going back to what they prefer to shoot.

 

The only other change is a lot more factory 9mm being shot.  You can buy as much as you want as long as you are willing to pay the price.  I switched myself, even though factory it is not optimal in my Open gun.  I do it because it saves primers, which I'd rather use for my USPSA 9mm major loads.

22% of all guns at worlds 2022 were centerfire hand guns/revolvers. Kind of low for what used to be a strictly centerfire handgun match. And yet there is 7 divisions for them all. 

 

Even with primer shortage, that won't stop people from shooting it at worlds. I just think there isn't as much of a draw. It's not very rewarding calling yourself a world champion if all you beat were 14 people in Single Stack.

 

2019: 30% were Centerfire handguns/revo

2020: 25%

2021: 25%

2022: 22%

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, blackss06 said:

The peak time for production is 94.5s and the peak time for ltd is 90. The peak time for ISR is 104. They aren’t even in the same ballpark at the upper levels of the game. There was a 20 second difference in the WSSC time between ltd and ISR, both shot by world champions. 

not sure what your point is. i suggested combining real iron sights handgun divisions. There is imho no good reason to have a different peak time for limited, prod and SS, and no good reason for watering down the competition by separating those divisions. I don't care about revo.

 

[blackss06]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

not sure what your point is. i suggested combining real iron sights handgun divisions. There is imho no good reason to have a different peak time for limited, prod and SS, and no good reason for watering down the competition by separating those divisions. I don't care about revo.

 

The point is that they’re different platforms with different equipment and have different peak times. The same reason why they’re separated in USPSA. The WSSC scores attest to that. 
 

If the perceived problem is that there’s not enough heat then download Practiscore competitor, combine all the irons divisions, and now you have everything combined. Or just click on main match and see where you stacked up. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, blackss06 said:

The point is that they’re different platforms with different equipment and have different peak times. The same reason why they’re separated in USPSA. The WSSC scores attest to that. 

 

I think they're probably separated in uspsa because of magazine capacity and tradition, not because one is faster to shoot at steel than the others.

 

the wssc scores mostly attest to which individuals focus on steel, which is why you see some ltd and prod guns near the top. Pretty much whatever gun bj shoots is going to look fast.

 

In the grand scheme of this tho, I dont really care that much. At local matches, I enter limited even tho I shoot SS. At big matches, sometimes I shoot both divisions with the same gun. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by motosapiens

[revolver45]

I think this is getting way past the original intent, which was, revolver shooters only want to compete in their own division against like minded shooters. If single stack was to be added to get "the numbers up" then ok, do it. But at least, do something. You, USPSA, cater to a lot of others, so what's different here? 

[GOF]

IMHO, the large number of divisions allow lots of shooter, at any age, to compete with what they have- against shooters with similar equipment. What's wrong that?

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, revolver45 said:

I think this is getting way past the original intent, which was, revolver shooters only want to compete in their own division against like minded shooters. If single stack was to be added to get "the numbers up" then ok, do it. But at least, do something. You, USPSA, cater to a lot of others, so what's different here? 

Lets not make this thread all about revolvers since that isn't what the concept of the question is about. It more so touched on the fact that Prod and SS had zero people competing. As you see there's 5 OSR people, which all things considered is a good turn out. That's only one less than Open for that match.