New Springfield double-stack ?

[Boomstick303]

The new Springfield does come with Dura-mags, not Mec-Gar.  Interesting Price point.  

 

 

[Boomstick303]

It will be interesting if anymore companies make "Budget" 2011 type guns.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Boomstick303

[mrvip27]

$60 magazines. lol

[APL-G35]

Wouldn't mind one of these with an SRO to play in CO once it's legal

[Boomstick303]

Unless there is a rule change I do not think they will be CO legal.  I believe it is a single action gun.

[esajz24]

I have a feeling CO will change or there will be a new SAO slide-ride optics division pretty soon.

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, esajz24 said:

I have a feeling CO will change or there will be a new SAO slide-ride optics division pretty soon.

 

In a way isn't it sad that one manufacturer releases a new product and we're willing to completely change equipment rules for it. 

 

It was discussed at the july BOD meeting. Consensus was against but that doesn't mean much. It'll be a new division called limited optics. And think, then carry optics nationals can have two separate divisions. Sponsors really like that, more nationals means more money. 

 

[mrvip27]

38 minutes ago, APL-G35 said:

Wouldn't mind one of these with an SRO to play in CO once it's legal

 

Well if that is the case, I would want to run a much higher quality competition focused 2011.

Edited September 1, 2022 by mrvip27

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, mrvip27 said:

 

Well if that is the case, I would want to run a much higher quality competition focused 2011.

The problem with this statement is it negates limited Nationals last year where everyone in the field except for the match winner got destroyed by a canik shooting minor. And the winner was shooting a crappy sig 320. No amount of money spent on a limited gun could make up for a talent

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In a way isn't it sad that one manufacturer releases a new product and we're willing to completely change equipment rules for it. 

 

It was discussed at the july BOD meeting. Consensus was against but that doesn't mean much. It'll be a new division called limited optics. And think, then carry optics nationals can have two separate divisions. Sponsors really like that, more nationals means more money. 

 

I was joking in my earlier post about changing the rules, but in reality I wouldn't mind it. Especially considering that now there's a 2011 that cost less than a lot of the guns people are using in carryouts now. Basically saying cost would no longer really be a factor

[Joe4d]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

The problem with this statement is it negates limited Nationals last year where everyone in the field except for the match winner got destroyed by a canik shooting minor. And the winner was shooting a crappy sig 320. No amount of money spent on a limited gun could make up for a talent

just more proof of what I have been saying for 20 years... Makes no sense whatsoever to separate gun divisions by trigger types after striker fired guns hit the market. National level wins, division scores, on and on and on have shown there really is no advantage between striker gun and 1911 trigger.

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

In a way isn't it sad that one manufacturer releases a new product and we're willing to completely change equipment rules for it. 

 

Is it?  Or should an organization come up to date with equipment to appeal to a broader market?  I hope more companies release double stack 1911/2011 Single action guns at a decent price point to force the issue even more.  The rules are outdated.  The divisions need a rather large revision to make sense for today's equipment to be more inclusive.  It is obvious that 2011s are appealing to more people and the market is growing.  I cannot imagine what the market would be if there were several companies creating double stack 1911/2011 Single action guns at a price point of $1500.  The current rule set could be adapted with a much simpler rule set that is more inclusive of newer technology, and cover future advancement in firearms. 

 

Is adding any gun going to make a difference in the standings at any competition?  It has been proven the "Gun Does Not Matter" time and time again.  

 

Why are people so resistant on recognizing rules need to change with current times and possibly be written in a way that could possibly include new tech for a decade or two to come?    

 

This horse will get beat to death again, but change does not occur without talking about it.  

[erwos]

20 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

It was discussed at the july BOD meeting. Consensus was against but that doesn't mean much. It'll be a new division called limited optics.

You mean Modified? *puts on IPSC shades*

 

I use optics-equipped 9mm 2011s for 3gun unlimited/open. They're fine for that. I'd rather see a complete division overhaul in USPSA than this death-by-a-thousand-cuts of making small modifications constantly because the latest big sponsor got posterior-hurt that their gun doesn't fit.

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

I was joking in my earlier post about changing the rules, but in reality I wouldn't mind it. Especially considering that now there's a 2011 that cost less than a lot of the guns people are using in carryouts now. Basically saying cost would no longer really be a factor

 

That's true, this brings the cost down to more inline with CO. $1,500 plus $500 in the optic, maybe $250 in trigger work, and $100 in a magwell. That's not much different than a tricked out DA/SA gun. Less that a A01. $700 steel grips are optional. 

[yigal]

43 minutes ago, esajz24 said:

I have a feeling CO will change or there will be a new SAO slide-ride optics division pretty soon.

 If IPSC approved these guns like M&P9 (SA)  and Laugo Allien SA gun with hammer  for this div.  then why not 1911?

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Is it?   

 

I think it just depends on the goal of the sport. If the goal is bring in the most sponsorship money possible from the industry we should probably have lots of divisions and adjust the rules on the fly as we've been doing for the last several years.

 

Stock production style guns don't really make money and have no place in the game. 

 

It's not so much the rule set one way or the other. It's the motivation behind the change. Like how people joke about IDPA and WC releasing new gear and the rules changing. Only that's what we want to happen in USPSA.  

Edited September 1, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[erwos]

1 minute ago, yigal said:

 If IPSC approved these guns like M&P9 (SA)  and Laugo Allien SA gun with hammer  for this div.  then why not 1911?

Where's my aftermarket BUL steel grip? lol

 

The slow widening of USPSA rules vs IPSC rules is an interesting topic, but I think the USPSA organizational politics are a dumpster-fire at the moment.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

we should probably have lots of divisions and adjust the rules

 

You do not need more Divisions.  Divisions could be cut down, and just include more guns.  

 

It should have noting to do with "Sponsors" and everything to do with allowing a broader array of guns into divisions that make sense for the current market and the future market to attract the most amount of shooters possible.  

 

I do not care about the hate but it could be as simple as this.  I have combined some ideas I have heard from others and tweaked them to make sense to me and keep it simple.  I have a feeling it would make sense for most, or maybe not.  I am sure there are some BOCs that will mortified by this but who cares.  

 

PCC

 

Keep PCC as is.  

 

Single Stack, L10, Revolver

 

These Divisions should be combined.  Tweak rules to bring some sort of equity between the Divisions, but I do not care it that happens.  I say this because at most locals the number of these shooters can usually be counted on one hand and it gives them someone to compete against at most local matches.  The other part of this these divisions are dying and count for like less than  2% (I am guessing at this) of the membership. IF, there was some burning desire by the consensus to keep them as is so be it.   

 

Open Minor

 

Think CO here with a restricted Mag length of 140mm.  Everything else goes and you can only shoot minor ammo.  This would include just about any gun that falls under a certain weight and size requirements (think fit in a box dimensions here).  SA and DA/SA guns can be used.  Optics used have to slide mounted optics.  No race holsters.  No comps or ported barrels of any sort.   This would prevent the introduction of the new guns with "built in comps" out of the division.  NOTE: this next comment can depend on the A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want ruleset adopted - You can use guns with or without optics for those that want to shoot 140 mm mags with their iron guns.  Either way Iron  can be used in Open Minor.   Honestly who care what aiming device someone uses.  I would allow magwells in that more and more guns are coming with them installed.  If they were not allowed I would not care.  

 

Open Major

 

Think Open here just as is and  you can shoot Minor or Major here.  Can use 170 mm mags, comps, ported barrels allowed.  Obviously SA and DA/SA guns can be used.

 

Limited Min.

 

Think production and production guns on steroids with restricted mag length of 140 mm.  This opens the door for a lot more guns.  Less restrictions for RO/COs to look for, (how many honestly know what to look for anyway?).  SA and DA/SA guns are allowed.  No comps or ported barrels.  Irons only.  No race holsters.  Either cap mag size at 140mm or 15 rounds.  Frankly, I do not care and about round per mag and its a hill that is not worth dying on.  I think it makes more sense to keep Open minor and A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want the same mag/round restriction in either case.  

 

Limited Major

Keep the current rule set, or possibly allow mag restriction to 170 mm.  Minor or Major PF.  

 

If shooting 9mm you can only score in minor.   Round count could bring some equity between 40 and 9mm.  

 

Things like allowing magwells, and/or gas peddles etc. could be debated if they are allowed in the "Minor Divisions" if need be.  Again not a hill worth dying on.  Keep flashlights so there is no whining about not allowing them.  Have they made one ounce of difference in the sport anyway and we do not have to listen about the incessant whining about being allowed to use them anymore.  

 

So much innovation has occurred over the last 5 years that this needs to be looked at.  With this rule set very few guns if any would be excluded.  People could shoot in Divisions that make more sense for over the counter guns, and the inclusion of SA guns in any division.  This would also prevent further tinkering with the rules in the future.  Peoples equipment would not become obsolete or feel the need to keep up with the Joneses with future rule changes.  

 

I am sure there is some tweaking or some things I did not think about but Keep it as simple as possible.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

It should have noting to do with "Sponsors" 

 

 

This was the point of my post you were disagreeing with. 

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In a way isn't it sad that one manufacturer releases a new product and we're willing to completely change equipment rules for it. 

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

You do not need more Divisions.  Divisions could be cut down, and just include more guns.  

 

It should have noting to do with "Sponsors" and everything to do with allowing a broader array of guns into divisions that make sense for the current market and the future market to attract the most amount of shooters possible.  

 

I do not care about the hate but it could be as simple as this.  I have combined some ideas I have heard from others and tweaked them to make sense to me and keep it simple.  I have a feeling it would make sense for most, or maybe not.  I am sure there are some BOCs that will mortified by this but who cares.  

 

PCC

 

Keep PCC as is.  

 

Single Stack, L10, Revolver

 

These Divisions should be combined.  Tweak rules to bring some sort of equity between the Divisions, but I do not care it that happens.  I say this because at most locals the number of these shooters can usually be counted on one hand and it gives them someone to compete against at most local matches.  The other part of this these divisions are dying and count for like less than  2% (I am guessing at this) of the membership. IF, there was some burning desire by the consensus to keep them as is so be it.   

 

Open Minor

 

Think CO here with a restricted Mag length of 140mm.  Everything else goes and you can only shoot minor ammo.  This would include just about any gun that falls under a certain weight and size requirements (think fit in a box dimensions here).  SA and DA/SA guns can be used.  Optics used have to slide mounted optics.  No race holsters.  No comps or ported barrels of any sort.   This would prevent the introduction of the new guns with "built in comps" out of the division.  NOTE: this next comment can depend on the A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want ruleset adopted - You can use guns with or without optics for those that want to shoot 140 mm mags with their iron guns.  Either way Iron  can be used in Open Minor.   Honestly who care what aiming device someone uses.  I would allow magwells in that more and more guns are coming with them installed.  If they were not allowed I would not care.  

 

Open Major

 

Think Open here just as is and  you can shoot Minor or Major here.  Can use 170 mm mags, comps, ported barrels allowed.  Obviously SA and DA/SA guns can be used.

 

A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want

 

Think production and production guns on steroids with restricted mag length of 140 mm.  This opens the door for a lot more guns.  Less restrictions for RO/COs to look for, (how many honestly know what to look for anyway?).  SA and DA/SA guns are allowed.  No comps or ported barrels.  Irons only.  No race holsters.  Either cap mag size at 140mm or 15 rounds.  Frankly, I do not care and about round per mag and its a hill that is not worth dying on.  I think it makes more sense to keep Open minor and A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want the same mag/round restriction in either case.  

 

Limited Major

Keep the current rule set, or possibly allow mag restriction to 170 mm.  Minor or Major PF.  

 

If shooting 9mm you can only score in minor.   Round count could bring some equity between 40 and 9mm.  

 

Things like allowing magwells, and/or gas peddles etc. could be debated if they are allowed in the "Minor Divisions" if need be.  Again not a hill worth dying on.  Keep flashlights so there is no whining about not allowing them.  Have they made one ounce of difference in the sport anyway and we do not have to listen about the incessant whining about being allowed to use them anymore.  

 

So much innovation has occurred over the last 5 years that this needs to be looked at.  With this rule set very few guns if any would be excluded.  People could shoot in Divisions that make more sense for over the counter guns, and the inclusion of SA guns in any division.  This would also prevent further tinkering with the rules in the future.  Peoples equipment would not become obsolete or feel the need to keep up with the Joneses with future rule changes.  

 

I am sure there is some tweaking or some things I did not think about but Keep it as simple as possible.

 

 

 

We could probably sum up your new rules with combined low cap and make CO Limited Optics, and split limited into major and minor divisions. Not really earth shattering. It does allow 2011's in everything but PCC so that'll make those builders happy. 

 

Although we're being pretty restrictive not allowing comps of any type. If sigs new concept of milling the comp into the slide with a shorter barrel takes off why restrict the market? Isn't innovation like that the whole point of revamping the divisions? We could be right back here in a few years saying A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want optic needs comps because the new smithfield 2026 has them and we could grow the sport. 

[Boomstick303]

It has nothing to do with ONE manufacturer or Sponsor.  It has to do with many changes in gun tech in the gun world in general.  From the growing popularity of  SA/2011 style guns, to guns with built in comps, to guns with increase round capacity for the mags included with the gun, to guns coming stock with magwells.  Many companies have come up with stuff that was not considered during the original rule sets were incorporated or added to with Divisions like CO.  

 

Maintaining round count to 10 rounds in Production is retarded.  Not allowing SA guns to play in any division is retarded.  etc.   

 

Every time a company comes up with some innovation it sparks a conversation about changing the rules to include that gun.  Not just from one company but from many companies.  

 

Simplify the rule set to allow more guns to play.  What is so hard to understand about that?   

 

17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

CO Limited Optics,

 

You can name it whatever you want. 

 

17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Although we're being pretty restrictive not allowing comps of any type. If sigs new concept of milling the comp into the slide with a shorter barrel takes off why restrict the market? Isn't innovation like that the whole point of revamping the divisions?

 

You could allow that tech in Open minor/CO Limited Optics or Limited Min., but I was trying to avoid the crying about allowing comps and ports in divisions other than "Major" Divisions.  I was also thinking about keeping people from thinking they HAVE to have that to be competitive, but I could see that argument about SA guns being allowed in "Minor" divisions.  Not a hill worth dying on. 

 

The main idea here is to make the rule set simpler and prevent further tinkering with them mostly.  

 

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

You can name it whatever you want. 

 

 

That's what they called it in the BOD meeting. Seems fitting as that's basically what it is. 

 

I'm to the point where I think all the divisions are dumb because none of the gear we use is practical for anything but the specialized sport of uspsa. We take everything to the extreme. For example you want magwells because a couple guns come with them. Cool, but you know we're all going to throw that magwell away and buy one that's tungsten and 3 times as big. Then we'll post video on the gram doing sub second reloads like we're cool. 

 

I want a old school production rules where the guns were basically stock and add 15 round mags. Or even just fit in the box mags that's fine. Give it a optic or make it irons I don't care. There is no place for that in the current rules less so in your future rules. But, the great thing about this sport is I don't need to revamp all the rules to carve out some special division for the thing I like. I can just go shoot a gun the gun I want to in the division it fits in. Crazy right? But no one wants to do that so we'll always be changing rules. 

[MuayThaiJJ]

Separate grip module like 2011, right? Wonder how close to 2011 specs it will be...

[Darqusoull13]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

But, the great thing about this sport is I don't need to revamp all the rules to carve out some special division for the thing I like. I can just go shoot a gun the gun I want to in the division it fits in. Crazy right? But no one wants to do that so we'll always be changing rules. 

People think they can buy skill with gear. Most would rather complain and make excuses about divisions than put time into improving with dry live fire practice. 

Back on topic, this is an interesting move when Limited is dying and 3 Gun is no where near where it was. I'm curious what the target market is. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

People think they can buy skill with gear. Most would rather complain and make excuses about divisions than put time into improving with dry live fire practice. 

Back on topic, this is an interesting move when Limited is dying and 3 Gun is no where near where it was. I'm curious what the target market is. 

 

I think the market is the timmy market. Similar to Staccato. Lots of people are dumping 2k on staccato's, so this will probably do vary well. I think it's a great move, and I might even need to get one at some point. I hope more companies get on the train, and I really hope we see more options for mags come from this move. $100 mags is kinda silly.