Short colt loads with WSF, Autocomp or WST?

[dansedgli]

Hey guys, 

 

I have entered into our regionals and joined icore. I have ordered a 627 and some starline short colt brass.

 

Any tips for short colt loads with autocomp, WSF or WST?

 

I have 40 days until the match and haven't shot a revolver in years. 

 

I likely won't get my gun for 2 weeks so cutting it fine. I found a north mountain moonclip holder in another state which is what I used to have and have a DAA insert.  

 

 

[Squirrel45]

WST with some 145/7 or 160's would work nicely to a 120pf. The other two you have mentioned seem a bit slow for what we are trying to do in my opinion. You can certainly use 9mm data as a starting point and work you way up from there. Just a note you can always run the OAL long if you feel unsafe with a load. A chrono is going to needed here as many of the loads you are going to try are not exactly listed directly in any book.  

[pskys2]

Be careful of WST, it's a good powder BUT it's inverse temperature sensitive.  It WILL lose velocity as the ambient temperatures get HOTTER.  A buddy even received the 360 second penalty for failing chronograph at a Regional in July a few years ago with a 38 special.

He swore he chronographed at home at 128 pf, when I questioned him he was using WST and he set his loads in April at 50 degrees.  The match was in July and high 90 degrees, his highest single round had only a 115 pf.

 

My preference is Clays, ClayDot or Titegroup.  I have a buddy who uses Auto Comp with light bullets in an Open Revolver (with comp) and likes it.

 

Primers in order of ease of ignition:

Federal 100 or 100M (Match)

CCI 500 (if newly manufactured as they've changed the mix and/or the cup, prior to 2020 they were the hardest to ignite)

Fiocchi SPP

Federal 200 (Magnums) or 200M (Magnum Match)

WSP

Remington SPP

Any others are a gamble, like MagTech or GenEx

 

As for Bullets I like BBI and they are very reasonable, usually in stock and deliver promptly.  Get .358" coated, the 160's are generally easier to find a good accurate load.

 

For a 160 coated bullet I load to 1.180" over all and use a 9mm Taper Crimp Die to .370"

And seat your primers to a minimum depth of .005" and the best depth is .010".

 

If you're using a Mr. Bullet Feeder save yourself frustration and go to UniqueTek https://uniquetek.com/product/T1736 and get the .358" powder funnel it does make a difference.

 

If you can use Clay or ClayDot  pm me and I'll give you the charge.  Can do it for Titegroup but haven't used it as much.

 

[dansedgli]

Thanks guys, great help. 

 

I don't think i can get any other powder unfortunately. Things are bad here.  

 

Our weather doesn't change that much but ill keep an eye on the chrono.  

[ysrracer]

I load a 160gr Bayou Bullet over Clays powder to an OAL of 1.20 with good results.

[pskys2]

Burn rates are WST is fastest and comparable to the rate of Green Dot, WSF is close to the burn rate of Herco and then Auto Comp burn rate is comparable to 540/HS6.

I've used a 160 coated & 3.1 WST at 800 f/s & 128 PF at 75 degrees, gave me a few unburnt granules of powder but was accurate.

Or a 158 Berry Plated with 3.3 WST for similar results at 75 degrees, gave me a few unburnt granules of powder but was accurate.

160 coated & 3.3 WST gave 865 f/s & a 138 PF and see no notes on granules was accurate and loaded to a 1.175" oal.

Note with a 38 SC case and a 160 grain bullet you want to load no shorter than 1.175" oal as shorter will leave the occasional bulge & the round won't chamber.

Never used WSF or AutoComp, tried 540 in a 38 special case and it was dirty.

 

Wst might be less dirty with a higher pressure/PF say about a 135 PF, which would also give you a hedge on temps issue.

[Fishbreath]

On 8/28/2022 at 12:45 PM, pskys2 said:

CCI 500 (if newly manufactured as they've changed the mix and/or the cup, prior to 2020 they were the hardest to ignite)

 

Huh! That's good to hear.

[pskys2]

44 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Huh! That's good to hear.

I haven't tested it extensively yet, have a flat to do so.  But I shot about 500 earlier in the year from my 627 PC with the light action this spring and had no issues with FTF's.  So it does look promising.

On my 627 Pro when I had a bit lighter action I had no FTF's with Fed, but a few with the CCI's.  So I'm sure they're not as good as Fed's.  Interesting side note I had good luck with Fiocchi's too, but they gave me about 2% that pulled back into the case during reloading the brass in my 1050.

 

Good luck at the IRC!  Hope you're practicing hard.

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Good luck at the IRC!  Hope you're practicing hard.

 

It's a little up in the air if I can make it this year, unfortunately, but I did have an excellent day at Area 8 yesterday.

 

With USPSA Nationals so early this year, I've been 'on' for a long time, so I might call the season a bit earlier than November—we'll see how I'm feeling toward the end of September and go from there.

[dansedgli]

Thanks guys. 

 

Is it normal to run 358's in a 357 magnum? 

 

My local bullet guy only lists 356's and 357's. 

 

There are heaps of revolver shooters around here but shooting things like PPC.  

 

 

[pskys2]

2 hours ago, dansedgli said:

Thanks guys. 

 

Is it normal to run 358's in a 357 magnum? 

 

My local bullet guy only lists 356's and 357's. 

 

There are heaps of revolver shooters around here but shooting things like PPC.  

 

 

.358" lead or coated will give best accuracy (and is the accepted standard) in .38/.357 magnum, revolvers.  Note if you go the 9mm Revolver route like the 929 it seems most of them do better with these bullets also.

.357" jacketed bullets are the norm for .38/.357's.

.356" lead or coated is for 9mm rounds, I've used them in my 627's and they aren't as accurate but they're usable in a pinch but not ideal in a Revolver.

.355" jacketed is the norm for 9mm's, I had fair luck with a SC load for my 627's with a .355 jhp montana gold bullet.  The accuracy was good, except it would give the occasional flyer about 2" outside of the group.  Again ok in a pinch, for practice or if that's what you have and can't get anything else.

[Toolguy]

I'm shooting .357 JHP bullets in my custom .355, 1 in 10 twist barrel Open Bianchi gun. In a Ransom rest (I can't hold it that good) it gets 3/8" groups at 25 yards and 1-1/4" groups at 50 yards.

[GMM50]

19 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Huh! That's good to hear.

I think that should read CCI  OEM brass in color.  Not quite like Federal more like Winchester.

[dansedgli]

7 hours ago, pskys2 said:

.358" lead or coated will give best accuracy (and is the accepted standard) in .38/.357 magnum, revolvers.  Note if you go the 9mm Revolver route like the 929 it seems most of them do better with these bullets also.

.357" jacketed bullets are the norm for .38/.357's.

.356" lead or coated is for 9mm rounds, I've used them in my 627's and they aren't as accurate but they're usable in a pinch but not ideal in a Revolver.

.355" jacketed is the norm for 9mm's, I had fair luck with a SC load for my 627's with a .355 jhp montana gold bullet.  The accuracy was good, except it would give the occasional flyer about 2" outside of the group.  Again ok in a pinch, for practice or if that's what you have and can't get anything else.

 

This was my understanding too. I was surprised to see the local bullet guy not stocking 358's. 

 

 

[Fishbreath]

Not that there are many floating around in competition, but my 9mm Super GP likes .357" coated, and they do at least work in the .357/.38 gun, too. (They take a bit more powder to make PF than .358s—assuming they don't seal quite as well.)

[ysrracer]

Is anybody using Win 244 powder? My local store has a ton of it.

[pskys2]

18 hours ago, dansedgli said:

 

This was my understanding too. I was surprised to see the local bullet guy not stocking 358's. 

 

 

Very likely that he see's more 9mm revolver shooters reloading, but the S&W 929 needs the .358 bullet for best accuracy at least on the one's I've shot.

[dansedgli]

Thanks guys. I'd say 95% of revolver shooters here shoot PPC style matches with 38 special so accuracy is important. 

 

I got my gun 2 weeks ago and have been busy almost every day loading and hitting the range with the chrono.

 

First loads with .357 160's did not group at all and were under PF. Finally got them to 122 PF but was not entirely happy with the grouping and ran out. 

 

The shop didn't have any more in stock so I bought some .357 145 grain round nose. 

 

As I increased the PF the groups started to improve. I'm settled on 4.2gn of WSF and the 145 for 130 pf. Accuracy is good enough but not awesome. I will special order some 358s and try again after the regionals. 

 

I do find my extreme spread can be huge. Is this a revolver thing? 

 

I put a spring kit in it and carmonised the hammer but I've tuned it to work with S&B primers which is a bit heavy. A friend swapped me some federals over the weekend so I will will wind out the strain screw a bit and try to improve it. 

 

ICORE regionals is the weekend after next so I shot a local level 3 IPSC match for some practise. It is going to take some work to get accurate and learn to reload. I had a few misses on the longer shots and some of my reloads were terrible but I had fun.  

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by dansedgli

[AzShooter]

Looks like a great match and your shooting is pretty good.  Too many problems for your reloads.  If you have enough moons, and if you don't get more, load them all up before you go to the match and make sure they all drop into the cylinder.  That will eliminate some of your problems.

 

Try to get your reload done in the first few steps so you can concentrate of getting to the target faster.  

 

All in all, you did well.  Keep it up.  

[dansedgli]

I checked my moons beforehand, they all dropped in and the cylinder moved freely.

I'm just a hack. 

[pskys2]

I was running my 627 PC with .358" 160's right at 800 f/s, accuracy was good but once I upped the charge and hit 830+ and 134+PF accuracy got much better.  So I just run that on everything from USPSA to ICORE to SC.

I had a 625 that had issues with good groups but 1 or 2 would open it up, it helped a lot when I recorwned the muzzle.

[GMM50]

Reloading dies.  If you can get 38 super that's the best (Lee had them)

 

Next best is 357 and 9MM combo.

 

357 deprime and resize.  357 open the case mouth and drop powder.  If this doesn't work then 9MM

9MM to seat and crimp.

 

It's a mix and match situation.  357 can be too long and 9MM to short.

 

[dansedgli]

Did you mean 38 super or 38 short colt? 

 

Currently using a 38 sizing die and 9mm everything else. 

 

I've got my trigger much better to match the federals now and won my IPSC club match last night  

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by dansedgli

[GMM50]

21 hours ago, dansedgli said:

Did you mean 38 super or 38 short colt? 

 

Currently using a 38 sizing die and 9mm everything else. 

 

I've got my trigger much better to match the federals now and won my IPSC club match last night  

 

 

Short COlt.

[pskys2]

22 hours ago, dansedgli said:

Did you mean 38 super or 38 short colt? 

 

Currently using a 38 sizing die and 9mm everything else. 

 

I've got my trigger much better to match the federals now and won my IPSC club match last night  

 

 

the 38 Short Colt dies have a Roll Crimp Die, I tried it and IMHO it just didn't give any advantage over a 9mm Taper Crimp Die and the taper crimp seems to cause less resistance on the moonclipped ammo going into the cylinder.  The Roll Crimp Die if used with a crimping groove will help with bullet pull out, but I've had no issues with the taper crimp dies.  Some loads were more accurate with a Roll Crimp and some with a Taper Crimp, leading me to believe it's not the type of crimp affecting accuracy.