Classification question

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, GigG said:

They won't when prizes in those other divisions.

 

Pretty sure I have alluded to that in numerous ways.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

Maybe not at the tippy top of the sport, but if you go to any local match, the GMs are beating the Ms who beat the As and so on, for the most part. 

 

On the local level I agree.  I was speaking more to the actual level of the local shooter compared to the top.  Put most local shooter at whatever their classification is they most likely would not shoot their classification percentage against the top shooters in the sport.  

[BritinUSA]

The vast majority of shooters will never actually compare themselves to the top competitors; Very few of them ever shoot Area or National matches. An accurate classification system would likely demotivate a lot of people who like to think they’re much better at this than they really are.

Edited August 12, 2022 by BritinUSA

[obsessiveshooter]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

On the local level I agree.  I was speaking more to the actual level of the local shooter compared to the top.  Put most local shooter at whatever their classification is they most likely would not shoot their classification percentage against the top shooters in the sport.  

I'm not sure I agree.  Most of the A-M people I know seem to hold that percentage at bigger matches, unless they got their classification a decade ago.  I'm actually surprised at how accurate the system is.  

[Fishbreath]

15 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I'm not sure I agree.  Most of the A-M people I know seem to hold that percentage at bigger matches, unless they got their classification a decade ago.  I'm actually surprised at how accurate the system is.  

 

I may be able to shed some extra light on that. I've been working on applying Elo ratings to USPSA. It's not perfect, but it does generally divide people into the correct tiers of match performance, even if it gets the exact orders wrong. Here are the classification-vs-rating statistics for Carry Optics, at all area matches and Nationals from 2020 to 2022.

 

There's a lot of overlap at high C/low B and high B/low A, but in general, classification is strongly correlated with Elo, which is itself strongly correlated with match finishes.

[Balakay]

34 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I'm not sure I agree.  Most of the A-M people I know seem to hold that percentage at bigger matches, unless they got their classification a decade ago.  I'm actually surprised at how accurate the system is.  

It’s hard to shoot your classification against the true death stalkers. 

At 2021 Open Nationals, Only 2 M were above 85% and only 8 A were above 75%

[Boomstick303]

I stand corrected.

[PhilTerry]

The ratings shown on the Russian site https://www.ipscrating.com, use only match results.

[BritinUSA]

That's a neat website; Of the 1399 matches (going back to 2002) the breakdown of divisions is quite interesting. Percentages are rounded:

• Production:                     2098  39%
• Standard:                        1377   26%
• Open:                                720   13%
• Production Optics:          584    11%  (introduced as PROVISIONAL in 2018)
• Classic:                             314     6%
• Revolver:                            99     2%
• Production Optics Light:   69     1% (introduced as PROVISIONAL in 2018)

If the two Production Optics divisions are added together then we get about 12% participation which is impressive as it's still a PROVISIONAL division and has a very restricted ruleset, and 15 round capacity.

[shred]

I'm terrible with a revolver yet I'm an M there too.  I demand special treatment! 

 

[Thomas H]

On 8/11/2022 at 4:59 PM, Boomstick303 said:

 

On the local level I agree.  I was speaking more to the actual level of the local shooter compared to the top.  Put most local shooter at whatever their classification is they most likely would not shoot their classification percentage against the top shooters in the sport.  

 

That makes sense, because the classification percentage is based on an external set of multiple known scores on standardized stages, and in a match it doesn't remotely look like that.

 

As someone has said, the classification system in general works very well as a predictor of approximately where people will end up in a major match---the GMs will beat the Ms, who will beat the As, who will beat the Bs, and so on.  True for majors, true for Nationals.

 

But your classification percentage doesn't tell you what percentage you'll get at a match. 

 

With regard to PCC and people not having realistic classifications with handguns due to it---personally, I don't like having a classification that I can't support with actual shooting skill.  As such, I would be extremely annoyed if I made GM in PCC and had all of my other classifications jumped up to M, because I couldn't support several of them with M-class shooting.  For handgun skills, if I made GM in Production or something, I could probably at least support an M-class ability level with every other handgun (except probably for revolver, due to reloads), because GM handgun skills translate well overall to other types of handguns.  But GM-level PCC skills don't mean anything with respect to handgun skills, and so I wish those were separate.

 

Oh:  And for those bagging on PCC again, it really is okay to let other people have fun in ways that you don't.  Seriously.   

[bobsaid]

4 hours ago, Thomas H said:

With regard to PCC and people not having realistic classifications with handguns due to it---personally, I don't like having a classification that I can't support with actual shooting skill.  As such, I would be extremely annoyed if I made GM in PCC and had all of my other classifications jumped up to M, because I couldn't support several of them with M-class shooting.  For handgun skills, if I made GM in Production or something, I could probably at least support an M-class ability level with every other handgun (except probably for revolver, due to reloads), because GM handgun skills translate well overall to other types of handguns.  But GM-level PCC skills don't mean anything with respect to handgun skills, and so I wish those were separate.

 

Oh:  And for those bagging on PCC again, it really is okay to let other people have fun in ways that you don't.  Seriously.

I shoot PCC almost exclusively. I'll run Production and CO when I feel like I can or it's a no PCC match (AZ Single stack had a "preview" day with just prod and revo which was really fun) but I feel like most days I'm a D class at best where as if I pushed I could probably be with in A/B for PCC.


Overall the classification system is needed because my home club (Rio Salado) has too many amazing shooters to name and if classifications were based on just local matches I'd struggle to even get out of D. There is no way I'd be able to out shoot Nils (who I was squadded with for the single stack prod match) when I can't even get my splits to be less than 3-5x of what his are with out a crap ton of time and money put into shooting/practicing.

[Boomstick303]

13 hours ago, Thomas H said:

As someone has said, the classification system in general works very well as a predictor of approximately where people will end up in a major match---the GMs will beat the Ms, who will beat the As, who will beat the Bs, and so on.  True for majors, true for Nationals.

 

But your classification percentage doesn't tell you what percentage you'll get at a match. 

 

Thank you for articulating what I was trying to explain way better than I did.

 

8 hours ago, bobsaid said:

Overall the classification system is needed because my home club (Rio Salado) has too many amazing shooters to name and if classifications were based on just local matches I'd struggle to even get out of D.

 

I do not think anyone is advocating to get rid of the classification system.  That's one of the reason USPSA has any staying power as a sport.  

[motosapiens]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:26 AM, Sinister4 said:

exactly it should be  totally separate for the pistol and the rifle. 

I'd go one step further and put rifles in a completely separate organization, with separate matches.

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I'd go one step further and put rifles in a completely separate organization, with separate matches.

 

Don't see it happening, we wont nuke L10 that no one shoots. Imagine killing a division that has participation. 

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I'd go one step further and put rifles in a completely separate organization, with separate matches.

 

PCC would be more attractive to me as a seperate match with some tighter shots then reasonable for a handgun and possibly longer shots if there was room. But I don't think the middle of the pack or below PCC shooter wants that. They want to compete in a pistol ability level match with a long gun and optic.

[GigG]

21 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I'd go one step further and put rifles in a completely separate organization, with separate matches.

 

I've solved the problem.  Add to every stage a 2 - 3 inch steel stop plate, at least 40 yards down range, that PCC shooter must shoot at the end of the match.  It adds ZERO points but it is a stop plate for PCC so not hitting it is a DNF for the stage.

 

I'm only about half joking.

[waktasz]

I kinda like it, but not every club has a 40 yard bay. I guess it will have to be a 1 inch plate for shorter range engagements  

[GigG]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

I kinda like it, but not every club has a 40 yard bay. I guess it will have to be a 1 inch plate for shorter range engagements  

 

Exactly!!!!   OMG we may have fixed PCC. I'm calling Troy.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, GigG said:

 

Exactly!!!!   OMG we may have fixed PCC. I'm calling Troy.

 

I'm sure they PCC shooters can't wait to here how you fixed it for them. 

 

 

Edit, as I think about this idea. Could we apply it to other divisions? Maybe special targets mixed into stages that only guns with optics shoot? Maybe the opposite some where the close wide open targets are only for low cap iron sight guys to boost their HF, and the high cap optic guys take harder shots to balance out the stage. Could be a interesting confusing mess of a challenge. 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm sure they PCC shooters can't wait to here how you fixed it for them. 

 

 

Edit, as I think about this idea. Could we apply it to other divisions? 

 

no need. all the other divisions are pistols, so they didn't wreck our ability to design certain kinds of stages.

[echotango]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

no need. all the other divisions are pistols, so they didn't wreck our ability to design certain kinds of stages.

I design pistol stages at my match. If you want to show up with a rifle, that is your decision. 

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

no need. all the other divisions are pistols, so they didn't wreck our ability to design certain kinds of stages.

 

What kind of stages will you be able to design differently if you can make special targets for one division? Does seem like he's addressing that at all. 

[Thomas H]

On 8/17/2022 at 5:52 PM, motosapiens said:

no need. all the other divisions are pistols, so they didn't wreck our ability to design certain kinds of stages.

 

Hasn't changed how I design stages in the slightest.    Nor has it changed other people's far as I can tell. 

 

If it HAS changed someone's, perhaps they should stop changing things.  Or perhaps some of their stages either weren't safe, or weren't much of a good idea in the first place.