WSB - must help tear down

[waktasz]

This doesn't really work for matches that don't sell out, but some local matches here open up reg to specific people who are known to be good workers/ROs/setup/teardown guys before the match is open to everyone else.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Match fees are universally too low imho.

yeah, and gas prices too. If we just raise the price of everything, it will keep out the riffraff.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Match fees are universally too low imho.

 

I hate to say but this is probably true. The price to shoot has been $20 here since I started almost 10 years ago. I'm sure the price of targets, pasters, wood for walls, steel, tablets etc all have to be up. Plus a lot of matches in this area will fill up and can have a wait list of 30 shooters. So the market will likely pay more money to shoot. 

[JWBaldree]

I'm of the opinion that match fees should reflect the needs and goals of individual clubs. Newer clubs need props, targets, steel, paint, etc, and that all requires cash. Either high(er) entry fees, more shooters or more activity days. The last club that I helped manage, we accomplished our growth through activity days. With enough equipment to  outfit double the number of bays that it has, a solid five figure bank account and room for more shooters at matches, there really isn't a need to raise match fees ($15 for club members, $20 for non-club members, plus a $10 range fee for anyone not a member of the private range where the matches are held).

 

As far as teardown, the shoot and scoot guys generally don't bug me.  Where I'm at, some people get there early to set up, most help throughout the match, and some stay late to teardown. Does the new dad who snuck out for the first time in six months need to stay? Or the guy who's wife is going through chemo and got a free morning to himself? Life happens, and as long as they were at least good squad mates, I don't get too wrapped around the axle over it. If I forced all the scooters to help, would they really do much of anything anyways? We've always been fortunate enough to have enough quality help in my AO that I wouldn't want to trip over some lolligagger or restack the stuff that they haphazardly dumped without care or concern.

 

Now the one guy that I can't truly abide is the one that when he shows up, everyone else groans. The guy that doesn't help set up, in fact he shows up late arriving during the shooter's meeting, doesn't help reset, won't RO on the timer or pad, has no clue it's his turn to shoot, and doesn't help teardown. Basically, the world revolves around him and his entertainment. That D-Bag can go find another match to shoot, because I don't want him at mine, and I don't even want to squad with him at others.

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

Does the new dad who snuck out for the first time in six months need to stay? Or the guy who's wife is going through chemo and got a free morning to himself? Life happens, and as long as they were at least good squad mates, I don't get too wrapped around the axle over it.

 

I don't think this post is about these guys, and these guys do help most of the time.  People and clubs do not mind making concessions for certain life things occasionally.

 

This post is about the one discussed in the bottom of your post.  It is always the same people.  

 

6 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

Now the one guy that I can't truly abide is the one that when he shows up, everyone else groans. The guy that doesn't help set up, in fact he shows up late arriving during the shooter's meeting, doesn't help reset, won't RO on the timer or pad, has no clue it's his turn to shoot, and doesn't help teardown. Basically, the world revolves around him and his entertainment. That D-Bag can go find another match to shoot, because I don't want him at mine, and I don't even want to squad with him at others.

 

[scroadkill]

On 7/13/2022 at 10:10 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Keep track of the "Shoot & Scoot" offenders. Then Double, Triple, and Quadruple their entry fee as needed to motivate them to do the right thing. I have only needed to deploy this entry fee doubling process once. When they were faced with double the entry fee or stick around another 30 minutes and help out with tear down, they chose to help. Were they butt hurt about it? Absolutely. Did I care that they were offended? Absolutely not. Shape up or Ship out.....

excellent!

Im thinking during registration ask the shooter "are you planning on staying at the end to help tear down, or shooting and scooting?" and then do some math.. If they shoot and scoot sans donation, dont ask next time - just tack on the doll hairs to their next match fee.

Edited July 15, 2022 by scroadkill

[Johnny_Chimpo]

19 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Match fees are universally too low imho.

 

Based on your match's financials?  Or do you just want to use it as a way to reduce demand?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

18 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

I agree, totally.

 

I think most competitors use USPSA match time as entertainment and social time.

How is that a problem?

 

 

18 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

And just for the record…I haven’t shot a match since April 2012. 

But likes to complain about match fees.  Seems legit......

[CHA-LEE]

When I started USPSA in 2008, the local Club match fees are basically the same ($15 - $20) or $5 more at a few clubs today. As a club USPSA president myself, I had to increase our fee's $5 this year to offset the never ending increase in consumables (Targets, Tape, Paint, Prop Maintenance, etc) as well as the Credit Card processing fee's associated with online registration payments.

 

When I raised the entry fee $5 ($20 > $25) it was alarming how many "Butt Hurt", "Don't Understand why you are Gouging us", "You are just trying to take advantage of the situation" emails, texts and in person bitching whiners I had to deal with. I tried to explain to each of them that NOTHING has gone DOWN in price since the club was established in the year 2000, so why on earth would the entry fee not increase a little to account for these expense increases? Grown adults literally throwing a fit over $5.

 

I also don't get the logic of a person with a $5000 gun on their hip is whining about paying an extra $5 to use said gun in the match. That same shooter will spend more in GAS driving to and from the range to attend the match than what the entry fee is. They will consume more $$$ in ammo shot during the match than the entry fee. But pointing out these facts to put it into perspective somehow doesn't make sense to these people.

[CHA-LEE]

If I have to shoot through a Club match, or leave right after shooting without tearing down, I work it out with the MD to come extra early and setup a whole stage myself. My "Dues" are Paid on the front end of the match.

 

The funny part about this, is as an MD, I offer shooters this same opportunity when they ask me to shoot through in the days before the match. I am YET to have one of these congenital deadbeats take me up on that offer. For them, I tell them to come and setup or don't attend. Magically, they don't attend.

[Furrly]

$25 is a hell of a deal, we pay $40 plus in CA.. 

[Chills1994]

4 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

How is that a problem?

 

 

But likes to complain about match fees.  Seems legit......

I was a match director.  Let me rephrase that, I was the volunteer, unpaid match director.

 

This was at a state run range.  The state wanted its cut per shooter.  And of course USPSA HQ wants its cut in activies fees/classifier fees.

 

So my hands were tied with respect to how low I could chop a match entry fee for the guys who were nice enough to show up early to help set up and the guys who stayed late to help tear down.

 

Soooo…. Let me rephrase my previous post:  for the entertainment value/duration, local USPSA match entry fees are a steal when compared to other forms of entertainment like  going to the movies (or say some place like a Dave and Busters).

 

 

[rowdyb]

You're at the range for 5 to 7 hours to shoot a match. I care much more what a person does within my squad to be helpful over that time frame than during the 20 minutes at the end of the day.

 

If much rather someone taped, scored, timer and was generally helpful in moving us efficiently throught the day who left as soon as the last shot was fired. I don't want a person who never taped, not helped, always sitting in the shade, nor was ready to go at their turn all day but then they carried a barrel, a wall section and two pieces of steel to a trailer at the end of the day.

Edited July 16, 2022 by rowdyb

[Ben53]

This discussion has given me a lot to think about.  I'm a Super Senior, and not in the best of shape.  I enjoy the comradery and the shooting, and I do try to help with pasting and resetting.  I don't think I could keep up as an RO.  The biggest problem is that the heat often gets to me here in the hot, humid south, and I can't do all I want to do to help without often having some issues.  Last time I shot (It's been a while) someone must have noticed I was starting to struggle and when it was time to tear down I was told not to worry about it, go on and cool off.  I appreciated that, but I know I haven't been holding up my end of squad duties.  I'm working on getting into better shape but it's not that easy for me... but working on it!  I know I probably won't ever be the best squad mate you've ever shot with, but I do hope to be more helpful in the future.  I appreciate the comments on here and promise to work harder not to be one of "those guys."  Thanks to all.

[Nathanb]

15 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

If I have to shoot through a Club match, or leave right after shooting without tearing down, I work it out with the MD to come extra early and setup a whole stage myself. My "Dues" are Paid on the front end of the match.

 

The funny part about this, is as an MD, I offer shooters this same opportunity when they ask me to shoot through in the days before the match. I am YET to have one of these congenital deadbeats take me up on that offer. For them, I tell them to come and setup or don't attend. Magically, they don't attend.

I used to offer this same service for those who wanted off the waitlist.  In the four years I offered it. I had one take me up on the offer. 

[motosapiens]

21 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

When I raised the entry fee $5 ($20 > $25) it was alarming how many "Butt Hurt", "Don't Understand why you are Gouging us", "You are just trying to take advantage of the situation" emails, texts and in person bitching whiners I had to deal with.

 seems like it should be easy to just show them the budget spreadsheet and explain where the money goes. I was on the BOD at our local range for several years, so I have a pretty decent idea of the financials. $15 ($12 for club members) seems to be plenty enough to cover our expenses and allow us to keep improving and expanding the props and resources, but we don't have to pay the range separately. We just give ALL the proceeds to the range, and then make budget requests each year for targets, tape, tools, props, etc.... I'd have to check the files to be sure, but I think even at $12-15 we bring in 2-3x what we spend.

 

regardless of the match fee, I'm a cheapskate, so I always build a stage or MD to save some $$.

Edited July 16, 2022 by motosapiens

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 seems like it should be easy to just show them the budget spreadsheet and explain where the money goes. I was on the BOD at our local range for several years, so I have a pretty decent idea of the financials. $15 ($12 for club members) seems to be plenty enough to cover our expenses and allow us to keep improving and expanding the props and resources, but we don't have to pay the range separately. We just give ALL the proceeds to the range, and then make budget requests each year for targets, tape, tools, props, etc.... I'd have to check the files to be sure, but I think even at $12-15 we bring in 2-3x what we spend.

 

regardless of the match fee, I'm a cheapskate, so I always build a stage or MD to save some $$.

 

Explaining match budgets, expenses, and consumables stuff to people who are too lazy to see the obvious is a waste of time. Believe me, I have tried. If McDonald's raises their prices, they don't have to provide their P&L statements to customers in order to justify it. Pay the higher price or eat somewhere else.

 

The price of a match entry fee is comical given the current cost of ammo alone. I have seen PLENTY of people blow $20 in ammo counting only extra shots through a match. Throw a couple of plate racks or a Texas Star out there and they will double their extra shots.

[obsessiveshooter]

Confronting the people privately and directly about habitually skipping out on teardown is the uncomfortable duty of a real leader.  Take that step first, then you'll be in the best position to take a punitive measure if it happens again.  

I think in 9 years of USPSA I've had to scoot immediately after last shots maybe twice. I think both times the match ran unusually late and I was up against a hard appointment time.  I've always tried to be one of the hardest workers during the match and especially at teardown.  That ought to count for something if in the future I'm in the same situation.  Someone on my squad will be butthurt, but I'll be able to live with myself.  

[Shootingaggie]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:46 PM, CHA-LEE said:

When I started USPSA in 2008, the local Club match fees are basically the same ($15 - $20) or $5 more at a few clubs today. As a club USPSA president myself, I had to increase our fee's $5 this year to offset the never ending increase in consumables (Targets, Tape, Paint, Prop Maintenance, etc) as well as the Credit Card processing fee's associated with online registration payments.

 

When I raised the entry fee $5 ($20 > $25) it was alarming how many "Butt Hurt", "Don't Understand why you are Gouging us", "You are just trying to take advantage of the situation" emails, texts and in person bitching whiners I had to deal with. I tried to explain to each of them that NOTHING has gone DOWN in price since the club was established in the year 2000, so why on earth would the entry fee not increase a little to account for these expense increases? Grown adults literally throwing a fit over $5.

 

I also don't get the logic of a person with a $5000 gun on their hip is whining about paying an extra $5 to use said gun in the match. That same shooter will spend more in GAS driving to and from the range to attend the match than what the entry fee is. They will consume more $$$ in ammo shot during the match than the entry fee. But pointing out these facts to put it into perspective somehow doesn't make sense to these people.

 Because of those expenses mentioned (that have all gone up substantially), finding savings where we can (ie match fees) is important. 

[CHA-LEE]

8 hours ago, Shootingaggie said:

 Because of those expenses mentioned (that have all gone up substantially), finding savings where we can (ie match fees) is important. 

So allowing a club to fail financially because you want to save a few bucks is a viable solution huh….. 

[Nathanb]

9 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

So allowing a club to fail financially because you want to save a few bucks is a viable solution huh….. 

exactly. And that’s what will happen once it’s not a financially viable way of making money for clubs 

[CHA-LEE]

This is what I am talking about when it comes to explaining raising match fee's. Many people are incapable of thinking about the bigger picture or what may affect a clubs solvency in the long term. These people live in the "Me, me, me and more Me" universe. There is no second thought to what might impact others. This is the pure definition of a "Consumer Shooter" clubs are now being overrun by.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

14 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

There is no second thought to what might impact others.

 

What's worse they can't recognize how they're negatively impacting themselves with their short sightedness and cheapness.