Open minor guns

[Lior]

20 hours ago, zzt said:

 

That just sucks.  Why no reloading?

Per our firearms authority, i.e., the Ministry of Annoyances, reloading requires a "license to manufacture ammunition", which is unobtainable for mere mortals.

[Snoopy47]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:29 AM, StefVanHauwe said:

On the other hand, I really think IPSC, and thus too USPSA, really need to review and especially lower the major PF for classic, standard and open division. I do not see a positive reason why it should be that high...........

It's kind of a weird evolution based on trying to circumvent the capacity limitations of the original presumption that Major PF could only be done by 45ACP. 

 

Someone got the bright idea of pushing 38/9mm super fast to meet the requirements of 45ACP power and ever since then 45ACP became uncompetitive with its capacity limitations. 

 

Totally agree............. USPSA/IPSC need to ask themselves "what are we trying to do here with Open". Does power factor need to be what it is, because originally it was intended to protect the caliber of 45ACP which it doesn't. Now that the sport and equipment has evolved and 45ACP has essentially been left behind do they want to encourage 45ACP, and define it by caliber and bullet weight?

 

Do they want to make Open less of restrictive ballistic risk (a PF in line with typical cheap ammo) and see what can really be produced in the realm of fast flat shooting without all the ammo risk that goes into it.

 

I mean not even all +P defense ammo makes major, and some that does wont always do it in all guns.  

 

 

 

[mrvip27]

21 hours ago, Snoopy47 said:

It's kind of a weird evolution based on trying to circumvent the capacity limitations of the original presumption that Major PF could only be done by 45ACP. 

 

Someone got the bright idea of pushing 38/9mm super fast to meet the requirements of 45ACP power and ever since then 45ACP became uncompetitive with its capacity limitations. 

 

Totally agree............. USPSA/IPSC need to ask themselves "what are we trying to do here with Open". Does power factor need to be what it is, because originally it was intended to protect the caliber of 45ACP which it doesn't. Now that the sport and equipment has evolved and 45ACP has essentially been left behind do they want to encourage 45ACP, and define it by caliber and bullet weight?

 

Do they want to make Open less of restrictive ballistic risk (a PF in line with typical cheap ammo) and see what can really be produced in the realm of fast flat shooting without all the ammo risk that goes into it.

 

I mean not even all +P defense ammo makes major, and some that does wont always do it in all guns.  

 

 

 

 

There is definitely traction gaining for Limited Optics...we shall see.

[zzt]

13 hours ago, mrvip27 said:

 

There is definitely traction gaining for Limited Optics...we shall see.

 

You can already shoot a Limited gun with an optic in Open.  I did just that in SCSA for years.  I also shot 40sw in an Open gun for years.  If you keep pushing for more nonsensical Divisions, we'll end up with so many there will only be two or three guns in each.

[Boomstick303]

I am not advocating for this, but it would be interesting on how the sport would evolve if Major PF went away completely.

 

I would be in favor of lowering Major PF to a more reasonable level, but of course I am not heavily invested in guns that produce Major PF.  I am sure there is a rather large crowd that would not be in favor who are heavily invested in Major PF guns/ammo.  

[GigG]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

You can already shoot a Limited gun with an optic in Open. 

 

Of course you can shoot it.  You CAN shoot a stock Glock 19 in Open.  You will just be giving everyone you are shooting against and advantage.

[Don_B]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I would be in favor of lowering Major PF to a more reasonable level,

Major power used to be 175. For those that might not know that was determined by using 45 hardball ammo out of a commander length pistol.  
 

So it was already lowered once. 

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, Don_B said:

Major power used to be 175. For those that might not know that was determined by using 45 hardball ammo out of a commander length pistol.  
 

So it was already lowered once. 

 

I have a Open gun that I bought used and it came with some 185 PF ammo from back in the day. Back then, men must of been men I guess. 

 

Now days everyone wants to load ammo way softer than any factory ammo and shoot it out 50 oz guns while talking about how flat shooting it is. 

[zzt]

6 hours ago, GigG said:

 

Of course you can shoot it.  You CAN shoot a stock Glock 19 in Open.  You will just be giving everyone you are shooting against and advantage.

 

And a Limited optic shooter is essentially a CO shooter with a single action.  Several of the CO shooters I shoot with routinely beat Open Ms shooting major.  LO would be the same.  Plus they could shoot major.  I put an optic on my Limited gun.  I'm just as fast as with my Open major gun.  155gr in 40sw and 115 in 9mm.

[zzt]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Now days everyone wants to load ammo way softer than any factory ammo and shoot it out 50 oz guns while talking about how flat shooting it is. 

 

LOL.  You must hang out with a lot of CO shooters.  

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, zzt said:

 

LOL.  You must hang out with a lot of CO shooters.  

 

I do...It's true though, right? We shoot 125 pf minor ammo, loaded with 147's or some even 160's with almost no powder in them. This stuff is so much lighter than anything off the shelf and we shoot them out of super tricked out heavy ass guns. You average gun owner buys a gun that weights half, trigger pull is 3x ours, and their ammo is way spicier. But of course, we pride ourselves on being the better shooters. 

 

Maybe we should raise minor to 135. Someone above mentioned defensive ammo isn't 165 pf, well it sure isn't 125 pf either.  

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I do...It's true though, right? We shoot 125 pf minor ammo, loaded with 147's or some even 160's with almost no powder in them. This stuff is so much lighter than anything off the shelf and we shoot them out of super tricked out heavy ass guns. You average gun owner buys a gun that weights half, trigger pull is 3x ours, and their ammo is way spicier. But of course, we pride ourselves on being the better shooters. 

 

Maybe we should raise minor to 135. Someone above mentioned defensive ammo isn't 165 pf, well it sure isn't 125 pf either.  

 

My 9 mm defensive ammo, not even plus p, is 162 power factor out of my five and a quarter inch, 34 oz plastic gun. It's not too far off of 165 lol. All of that to say I agree with you

[GigG]

15 hours ago, zzt said:

 

And a Limited optic shooter is essentially a CO shooter with a single action.

 Oh but it isn't.  A Limited gun doesn't have to be on the Production list and can have lots of goodies that a CO gun can't. 

[GigG]

This is a little off topic but can anyone explain why CO is automatically minor PF?  I mean there are plenty of guns that would be legal and shoot ammo that is major from the factory and many more that would just need slight uploading.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, GigG said:

 Oh but it isn't.  A Limited gun doesn't have to be on the Production list and can have lots of goodies that a CO gun can't. 

Like? Off the top of my head I can't think of much. Magwells... 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

40 minutes ago, GigG said:

This is a little off topic but can anyone explain why CO is automatically minor PF?  I mean there are plenty of guns that would be legal and shoot ammo that is major from the factory and many more that would just need slight uploading.

 

Not sure what you are talking about here.  Shooting Major PF our of most CO (if you are referring to legal Carry Optics guns here) which are typically striker fired guns, where it would not be a good idea in that they are not rated for Major PF, and many of them indicate to not shoot a lot of +P ammo through them.  Meaning they will shoot + P ammo, but not exclusively +P ammo.  I cannot speak to CZs, but I imagine the majority of CZ 9 mm guns are not designed for Major PF.

 

Also because you can does not mean you should necessarily.  Many striker fired guns have an unsupported chambers.  Shooting Major PF out of a barrel that has an unsupported chamber would be pretty unsafe.  

Edited June 29, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Not sure what you are talking about here.  Shooting Major PF our of most CO (if you are referring to legal Carry Optics guns here) which are typically striker fired guns, where it would not be a good idea in that they are not rated for Major PF, and many of them indicate to not shoot a lot of +P ammo through them.  Meaning they will shoot + P ammo, but not exclusively +P ammo.  I cannot speak to CZs, but I imagine the majority of CZ 9 mm guns are not designed for Major PF.

 

Also because you can does not mean you should necessarily.  Many striker fired guns have an unsupported chambers.  Shooting Major PF out of a barrel that has an unsupported chamber would be pretty unsafe.  

 

 

I think it has to be minor because it was based off production. If it was Major it wouldn't be a problem because they do make 40 ammo still and even 45. So tearing up the guns is really a non-issue

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I think it has to be minor because it was based off production. If it was Major it wouldn't be a problem because they do make 40 ammo still and even 45. So tearing up the guns is really a non-issue

 

To be honest I did not understand the question.  Was he referring to shooting 40 and. 45 in CO?  

Edited June 29, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

To be honest I did not understand the question.  Was he referring to shooting 40 and. 45 in CO?  

Not positive. I just took it as asking why carry-ops was minor only, and the only reason I can think of is I seem to remember it just based because production is minor only. If they were to allow major in carryops, they could do it the same way as they do limited so that blowing up guns with nine major is not a huge issue. But I do not ever see that happening. I definitely could be misinterpreting what he's asking as well though

[Boomstick303]

Yea, Production and CO only allow minor scoring within the rules, so I am not sure why you would ask the question.

 

CO Major already exists.  Its called Open.

[GigG]

What I'm looking for is why is Production & CO minor only.   There are plenty of guns in the production list that are capable of major. And if you think that CO Major is anything close to Open you don't understand the rules of at least one of those divisions.

 

[RJH]

29 minutes ago, GigG said:

What I'm looking for is why is Production & CO minor only.   There are plenty of guns in the production list that are capable of major. And if you think that CO Major is anything close to Open you don't understand the rules of at least one of those divisions.

 

 

Production is a 10-round only division. By allowing major you would make it a major only division since there is zero discrepancy in capacity. When production started it was to have a low entry cost for competitors, I understand in some ways it's gotten away from that now.

 

To keep the arms race under wraps and because at the time of productions inception the Brady Bill was in effect, the powers that be decided 10 rounds of minor was the way to go for that particular division.

 

When carry-ops started, the idea was take your production gun and slap a dot on it. I understand that has changed now, but since it was originally take a production gun and slap a dot on it, 10 rounds of minor was kind of already in the rules. To keep all the guns that were already being used from being illegal it made sense when they decided to allow 140 mm mags to keep the minor only specification to keep production guns that people might want to swap from being illegal

 

 

At least that's a logical progression, I cannot guarantee some of it is 100% the way it went down LOL 

 

 

PS, I would love it if they allowed major in carry-ops, even if they restricted major to 45 ACP. But if they never do, I'm okay with that too

 

 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

38 minutes ago, GigG said:

There are plenty of guns in the production list that are capable of major. And if you think that CO Major is anything close to Open you don't understand the rules of at least one of those divisions.

 

Kind of like when you don't understand why CO is minor only.............

 

Trust me I completely understand the differences between CO and Open.

 

[moose97]

I'm seriously thinking about buying a CZ Czechmate, which would allow me to shoot Open Minor until I am able to get set up for reloading and switch to Major. I'm shooting for fun over being competitive - at least beyond my local matches. So, knowing I'll never win a Section or Area match, why not shoot Minor?

[Cuz]

9 hours ago, moose97 said:

I'm seriously thinking about buying a CZ Czechmate, which would allow me to shoot Open Minor until I am able to get set up for reloading and switch to Major. I'm shooting for fun over being competitive - at least beyond my local matches. So, knowing I'll never win a Section or Area match, why not shoot Minor?

You might find that even after you start reloading, you still prefer to just shoot minor because it’s easier to load, easier to shoot, and you can shoot the same ammo in all your 9mm pistols and PCCs without any worry.