How To: Flip, Eject and Catch a round from a Pistol in IPSC/USPSA

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, GOF said:

I beg to differ. I have seen it happen. 

 

Unless you saw the primer hit the ejector, correlation is not the same as causality.

[Sarge]

13 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Unless you saw the primer hit the ejector, correlation is not the same as causality.

I have seen a few detonations. The extractor makes a perfect indentation on the primer.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

I have seen a few detonations. The extractor makes a perfect indentation on the primer.

 

I hear you but if a pistol is leaving ejector marks on primers it needs to be fixed.

 

Ejectors are designed to hit the case near the edge so that they flick out clear of the gun.

[JFlowers]

The issue is that most people cant the pistol heavily to do the flip and catch foolishness.  So the round will slip out of the normal central path putting the primer in line with the ejector.  There is nothing to "fix".  Its simply cant, motion, and physics.

[GOF]

23 minutes ago, JFlowers said:

The issue is that most people cant the pistol heavily to do the flip and catch foolishness.  So the round will slip out of the normal central path putting the primer in line with the ejector.  There is nothing to "fix".  Its simply cant, motion, and physics.

+1!

[Racinready300ex]

 

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

I have seen a few detonations. The extractor makes a perfect indentation on the primer.

 

We're they all people trying to flip catch?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

We're they all people trying to flip catch?

No. 

[Boomstick303]

If your extractor is dropping rounds when you tilt your gun, your gun is not operating correctly.  The extractor should be looked at every time you clean your gun to make sure its operating correctly to make sure you do not have this sort of detonation during normal operation of the gun regardless if you flip and catch or not. One should be checking the extractor to make sure their gun operates correctly for the entire match.  The force required to eject a round is no where near the force exerted on the slide during normal operation.  If the extractor is dropping rounds when you tilt the gun I would expect that gun would be malfunctioning during normal operation.  Could it happen when "flipping" a round?  Possibly, but that would take an extraordinary set of circumstances, upon which I cannot see happening very often, if at all.

 

This thread makes it seems like these detonations are some sort of regular occurrence.  I am fairly certain it is not. 

[TaterHead]

I have not heard of a detonation during a flip and catch, but I do know of two where the shooter was doing a normal unload, but had his hand cupped over the ejection port when racking the slide. The idea being not to let the round hit the ground. I cringe when I see someone do this. This is known issue that has been around for as long as I can recall.

[Nightforce]

I heard that slow is smooth and smooth is fast when it comes to last round ejections. I heard you should use a hard front sight focus while flipping and catching. I also heard that the flip and catch doesn't work if you have an occluded red dot. I also heard that the flip and catch will get you killed in the streets. I also heard that real men don't need to flip and catch because their 45ACP is already empty.

[twodownzero]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:36 AM, Sarge said:

Based on how wild some guys get when learning it there is definitely something to perfect. Covering the port is dangerous I agree but I can’t count the number of ejected rounds I’ve seen hit gravel without incident.

 

While I don't flip and catch, I do have a good friend who had a round go off after he ejected it on the ground.  The RO wanted to DQ him and insisted that he pulled the trigger until other shooters found the brass on the ground, blown apart, and showed him that it was unstruck.

 

I still think the flip and catch is a risk you won't see me taking in a match, and while I'm not out to DQ anybody and haven't worked a major in a bunch of years, I'd really hate to have to DQ someone for this.  It's just a risk not worth taking.

[Sarge]

11 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

 The RO wanted to DQ him 

 

I can’t help it but that’s funny.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Sarge

[Farmer]

There must be something to it because on the last pistol I bought they make mention in the manual of not covering the ejection port with your hand while ejecting a live round. Just for giggles I took a dummy round and slowly extracted it watching where the ejector hit. On the standard size guns most were hit on the center of the rim but on the Hellcat it was a little closer to the primer. Smaller gun, more compact. What confuses me is how some guns won’t fire a round when it’s solidly supported in the chamber and hit dead center, but yet goes off when flopping around under the extractor and gets edge dinged by the ejector. I think there should be some closer inspection on that. I know I wouldn’t try to flip-catch because I’d probably drop the gun and everything on the ground. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, JFlowers said:

The issue is that most people cant the pistol heavily to do the flip and catch foolishness.  So the round will slip out of the normal central path putting the primer in line with the ejector.  There is nothing to "fix".  Its simply cant, motion, and physics.

 

No, that's not how pistols work and 15 seconds of observation will show how wrong that statement is.

 

The extractor holds the case head flat against the breech face and the cartridge axially aligned with the bore regardless of the orientation of the pistol or the slide's velocity.  What's more the ejector is not exposed to the case until the last few mm's of slide travel otherwise it's hidden inside the slide's ejector channel.  At no point in the cycle of extraction and ejection is the cartridge free to move around until the ejector hits the edge of the rim.  If your pistol doesn't work that way get it fixed because it's defective.

 

Every single one of my semiautomatic pistols regardless of brand or action type works as I've described after cycling a snap cap (made out of a real brass case) through them.

 

Confusing correlation with causation (I saw B happen after A so B must have been caused by A) is the most common logical fallacy and the easiest to fall for.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Farmer]

8 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

No, that's not how pistols work and 15 seconds of observation will show how wrong that statement is.

 

The extractor holds the case head flat against the breech face and the cartridge axially aligned with the bore regardless of the orientation of the pistol or the slide's velocity.  What's more the ejector is not exposed to the case until the last few mm's of slide travel otherwise it's hidden inside the slide's ejector channel.  If your pistol doesn't work that way get it fixed because it's defective.

 

Every single one of my semiautomatic pistols regardless of brand or action type works as I've described after cycling a snap cap (made out of a real brass case) through them.

 

Confusing correlation with causation (I saw B happen after A so B must have been caused by A) is the most common logical fallacy and the easiest to fall for.

You are correct, and most breech faces will not allow the case to move much side to side. I know some extractors do lift the case to the side once it clears the chamber but that moves the primer farther away from the ejector. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Farmer

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Nightforce said:

I heard that slow is smooth and smooth is fast when it comes to last round ejections. I heard you should use a hard front sight focus while flipping and catching. I also heard that the flip and catch doesn't work if you have an occluded red dot. I also heard that the flip and catch will get you killed in the streets. I also heard that real men don't need to flip and catch because their 45ACP is already empty.

 

This is the first non-retarded post in this thread. 

[loubob]

I notice some people doing this and the muzzel is facing over the burm is that within the rules ?

[Blackstone45]

13 minutes ago, loubob said:

I notice some people doing this and the muzzel is facing over the burm is that within the rules ?

Depends on the vertical safety angle stipulated in the stage briefing.

[RJH]

55 minutes ago, loubob said:

I notice some people doing this and the muzzel is facing over the burm is that within the rules ?

 

In USPSA it is legal. Ipsc or IDPA, idk

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

In USPSA it is legal. Ipsc or IDPA, idk

 

IDPA depends on the range, but rules like that need to be published so shooters know before they come to the match. 

[loubob]

Quote

 

Thanks for replies. Seems weird  though if a gun is always suppose to be treated as if it was loaded why they would allow gun handling to breech the berms.

[louu]

Was it here or doodie that had that epic thread about this? I'm thinking it was here but I can't find it 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, loubob said:

Thanks for replies. Seems weird  though if a gun is always suppose to be treated as if it was loaded why they would allow gun handling to breech the berms.

 

Is there a berm in your house?  How do you handle loaded pistols away from the range?

[loubob]

there is no berm in my house,  on the other hand there is no safety table or rules for safe gun handling while in my house. rules change when you are at an organized competition.

[TaterHead]

12 hours ago, louu said:

Was it here or doodie that had that epic thread about this? I'm thinking it was here but I can't find it 

Yeah, it was epic.