Win 244 in 45 acp Loads

[Tom S.]

I found a supply of Win 244 but reloading data seems to be non-existent other on Hodgdon's website. There, for 45 acp 200 grain cast SWC bullets, they list a starting range of 5.1 through a maximum load of 5.8 grains. Has anyone found a sweet spot within this range?

 

Kind of odd because this powder has been in production for 4 years but I couldn't find anything about it on Handloader's Forum other than they did a Propellant Profile on it in their October 2018 issue (which I ordered).

 

Insights are welcome! 

[Farmer]

@Tom S.I haven’t gotten to the 45 yet but so far in the others I’ve tried it in I’ve had good results. It’s kinda like 231 but a bit more energetic and somewhat cleaner at the lower loading’s. In my 327 FM it seems to work best at or around .3 -.5 g under max for a nice mid range load. I have loaded it at and below the min in the 10mm and 9mm and it works ok but there are others that are better suited. Was down to 4.5 in the 10mm with 180g for 900 fps.  Depending on what your after it seems the middle of the road seems to work well with it. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Farmer
Added data

[Tom S.]

OK, here's the answer to my own question. Loaded up rounds using Missouri 200 grain SWC coated bullets, starting at 5.1 grains in 0.1 grain increments through 5.9 grains of Win 244.  Groups consisted of 6 shots each fired from a rest with a S&W Performance Center 1911. The group size decreased to a minimum at 5.4 gr loading, then started increasing again, dramatically the higher the loading got. At 5.8 and 5.9 I had two failures of the gun to go into battery, both caused when the round jammed about 3/8" into the barrel at an angle, both putting a mark in the brass where it jammed. Brass used was mixed head stamps. Although primers were slightly more flattened at the top end, it wasn't significant.  So I'm going ahead with 5.4 grain loads.

 

Picture of fired brass. Case on left is 5.1 gr case on right is 5.9 gr

 

[Farmer]

2 hours ago, Tom S. said:

OK, here's the answer to my own question. Loaded up rounds using Missouri 200 grain SWC coated bullets, starting at 5.1 grains in 0.1 grain increments through 5.9 grains of Win 244.  Groups consisted of 6 shots each fired from a rest with a S&W Performance Center 1911. The group size decreased to a minimum at 5.4 gr loading, then started increasing again, dramatically the higher the loading got. At 5.8 and 5.9 I had two failures of the gun to go into battery, both caused when the round jammed about 3/8" into the barrel at an angle, both putting a mark in the brass where it jammed. Brass used was mixed head stamps. Although primers were slightly more flattened at the top end, it wasn't significant.  So I'm going ahead with 5.4 grain loads.

 

Picture of fired brass. Case on left is 5.1 gr case on right is 5.9 gr

 

So pretty much the middle of the load works in the 45 as I’ve found in the other calibers. Could be the angle but your red marked case looks like the lighter load to me. But either one looks great. 

[Tom S.]

2 hours ago, Farmer said:

So pretty much the middle of the load works in the 45 as I’ve found in the other calibers. Could be the angle but your red marked case looks like the lighter load to me. But either one looks great. 

The most telling indicator are the scratches that appear so clear on the primer of the red case but are less distinct on the blue case. That is due to the extra pressure pushing the primer back harder against the breech face and thus transferring the scratches that appear on the breech face more clearly.

[Farmer]

Whatever believe what you want. 

[Tom S.]

18 hours ago, Farmer said:

Whatever believe what you want. 

WTF?  Who pissed in your Wheaties? 

[Farmer]

6 hours ago, Tom S. said:

WTF?  Who pissed in your Wheaties? 

Sorry, crappy week. What I was looking at was the more rounded edges on the right primer compared to the flatter left primer. The scratches could also be flattened out more by the higher psi making it look like less psi. Who knows. We’re always told that primer condition isn’t a good indicator of psi but unless you have a lab it’s what we got. I have a revolver that with even minimum loads, mashes the primer almost to the lettering on the brass, so there’s that. If your load works good, is accurate and safe that’s all that matters. 

[Tom S.]

You do have to be cautious about using primers as indicators of load pressures even though it was an accepted method 50+ years ago. There are so many variables that can cause them to give false readings. In this instance, although the cases were mixed, everything else was carefully monitored to be as consistent as possible. 

 

I think a slight blurriness or lighting in the photo is causing the left case to look less rounded. In reality, they are nearly indistinguishable in that regard.

[Youngeyes]

Are you saying that there are scratches are on your beech face, and were transferred to the primer? They look like gouges to me. Were there any other primers that looked that way? Did you chrono the loads?  I also found an article about 244. https://www.handloadermagazine.com/propellant-profiles-9

[Farmer]

This is the one I mentioned. All of these are the same weighed load. I gave up reading primers on this particular gun and just go by the book. Even extraction isn’t a good indicator on this one when it gets a little dirty. Sometimes the book isn’t right either. I noticed Hodgdon lowered its Longshot loading for the 180g 10mm 1.3 grains but raised the psi about 2000 psi. 
Ooops! How does that work?

[Tom S.]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:35 AM, Youngeyes said:

Are you saying that there are scratches are on your beech face, and were transferred to the primer? They look like gouges to me. Were there any other primers that looked that way? Did you chrono the loads?  I also found an article about 244. https://www.handloadermagazine.com/propellant-profiles-9

Yes, if you look closely at the case on the left in the 12 o'clock position you can see the same scratches but they are much less pronounced. Although I have a chronograph, I didn't use it for this run because I was at a public range and set up is a PITA.

 

Thanks for posting the Handloader link. Pretty happy that their 5.5 grain post corresponds well with my 5.4 finding.

 

Farmer's post is interesting. I read just yesterday about a fellow who was experiencing an issue with a load he had used for years. He suddenly started having a specific brand (sorry I don't remember which) show signs of extreme pressure so he sent some of the cases into the magazine writer for examination. The writer determined all the primer flash holes were considerably over sized, thus increasing the pressure. I'm not saying that was the cause in Farmer's example. Rather there are many things that can influence pressure besides the powder charge itself. In Farmer's example, it could be a number of things: as stated an over size flash hole, a loose primer pocket, a deep seated bullet (either at loading or from setback), or a variance in bullet weight, or case capacity. Or a combination of more than one of the mentioned items.

 

Wolfe publishing produced an interesting book titled Firearm Pressure Factors that provide interesting reading on the topic. My copy is dated 1990 and was updated in 2006 but has since been discontinued. It's available on Amazon but outrageously priced.

[Youngeyes]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:53 AM, Tom S. said:

Although I have a chronograph, I didn't use it for this run because I was at a public range and set up is a PITA.

I had that problem so I bought a Labradar. Expensive as hell but well worth it just for the ease of use. No setting up down range. 

[Tom S.]

3 hours ago, Youngeyes said:

I had that problem so I bought a Labradar. Expensive as hell but well worth it just for the ease of use. No setting up down range. 

I have thought about it numerous times!